Is submission weak or strong?

Was having this discussion the other night with a Domme ive sessioned with for a while and i think i caught her off guard.

Over my 20 years in bdsm ive always heard that submissive men are weak and lack confidence. I get that soemtimes people want humiliation. Sometimes i do too.

But ive always thought submission is an act of strength. To be able to confidently express that you want to kneel before a Domme and give up control takes a ton of confidence. To be able to put your needs and desires aside to please and serve takes strength not weakness.

When i walk out of a session i feel like i can take on the world. That to me doesn't seem weak?

What does everyone else think is submission an act of weakness or strength or can it be both?

Great topic. I've always viewed submission as a sign of self confidence and strength. It takes both to dig in and enjoy your fantasies and fetishes without being insecure.

I can't speak as a submissive, but as a kinkster I can confidently say different people get different things out of Kink. With this in mind my assumption would be that it can be both

Not because I'm a sub overwhelmingly in session, but I agree with Cheyenne and Spark on the subject. I was actually thinking about this a couple of weeks ago, when I was reminiscing about my past "adventures."

For me I have the confidence to be a sub. Over the decades I've had sessions they have been with traditional Dominas, female bodybuilders and what best can be called "kinky escorts" for want of a better phrase. All were in control and all were dominant. (In a couple of very rare cases I became as switch as a natural part of the session with ladies I knew well.)

In analyzing my alter ego and my kinks in session, I like being an exhibitionist for one Mistress, if that makes sense. With two Dominas I know very well we did limited public play on the waterfront, parking garages, hotel stairways. In the past decade or so I put myself in the frame of mind as I go to a sessions that the dominant woman who I will me has hired me as HER entertainment.

So I think you have to be strong and confident to be a submissive, and willing to be open to new possibilities.

It depends. I think if you are submissive and view women as superior in all facets of life, then sure, you're weak. For some, it may be a fetish. I definitely wouldn't say it is a strength, but I don't necessarily think sessioning and fetishizing women is weak. I mean, after all, I am technically hiring/renting a woman for an hour to dress up and perform several activities I like. Generally, their tits are slightly exposed and I cum. I don't see that as being weak.

I think the strength of the male submissive lies in recognizing, accepting and acting upon the desire (need?) to submit to a dominant woman. That goes against so much of what we are taught as young boys and into young manhood.

But once accepted and acted upon, that moment is tremendously liberating. But it takes a lot of strength to accept it, and even more to act upon it for that very first time.

I agree

In our kinky world most would view it as a strength. As for the regular vanilla people probably see submission as a weakness.

For a man to put on a ballerina outfit or bend over for a strap on, to be considered weak, is beyond me. That is a sign of self assurance and someone who just wants to have fun, without worrying what anyone else would think.

How can I put this politely and not graphically? I got into the scene as a horny 20 yr old seeing a grainy B&W pic of a hot late 40s woman in leather. I went there not knowing a damned thing but willing to experiment to be with her. I was respectful. It was extremely hot. Wonderful. My Mom raised me as a gentleman. I think that’s the reason I took chances and followed instruction, with limits, in the decades since. I feel privileged to have met, known and enjoyed so many creative, strong women. Many pushed my limits as they got to know me. In my last sessions last year I did things that my 20 yr old self would have said, “What?” I was brave enough to take a chance and Dominas gave me the confidence to try. Mistresses are brave and, thanks to them, so are subs. Mistresses provide confidence... and safety if they are real pros. In my case my Mistresses objectified by masculinity to be of service and entertainment to them. I learned and I’m very thankful.

how can you submit if you are not strong? submission can only be given if you have strength.

BRAVO!

You have to be imaginative, and trusting, like our MIstresses.

I think you are talking about the difference between submission in the normal, non-sexual, vanilla world vs. the choice to submit to a specific person for a specific period of time or on an ongoing basis.

Men who get bullied and pushed around, who won't stand up for themselves whenever there is a conflict and always just give in are weak and usually are like that because of a lack of confidence. That may make them submissive personalities but that has nothing to do with what we view as submissive behavior in our community.

It takes a huge amount of strength to truly submit to someone else in our world. To give up control and subvert your own desires to someone else that you fully trust is a big thing. Unlike guys with no backbone, it is an active choice to do so (even if you are just making the choice to book a session) as opposed to the weak people who are just suffering the daily indignities that are foisted upon them in life.

The world may see it as one person bossing around another person and doing all kinds of evil things to them. But that is part of an agreed upon dynamic that requires confidence and trust in the Domme by the sub. So, submitting is a serious act of strength even if the world only sees that I am being spit-roasted and peed on while wearing full makeup, a maid's outfit and a chastity device. *looking dreamily into the distance and forgetting what we were talking about*

But this is never the case, is it? The sub always ultimately sets bounds and limitations to say the least. Ultimately each different session is a different business transaction and if either of dom/sub don’t like to continue doing business with each other they have zero obligations to continue it, right?

In the "one off" session, I would agree with you. It's a transactional, negotiated scene. But if you are fortunate enough to develop a deeper bond with a pro Domme it can be so much more. She can push limits safely beyond where you ever thought you would go. It can be a journey, if you seek it and let it happen. Choosing to take that journey takes strength. I think that is what others are trying to convey here.

Mistress Ayn, as usual, you are absolutely correct. Thanks.

It's weak because you are paying. I fall into that category too. I don't consider myself weak per se, but this is a weakness.

I agree with everything you specifically said as every relationship, whether it involves BDSM or not, has each person in the relationship setting the rules/limits of what they will put up with. However, I think the unstated implication of your statement is wrong.

As Mistress Ayn stated, in a purely transactional Pro / client relationship it does function the way you stated and if that is your attitude about seeing a Pro Domme (even if you see the same one for years). However, if you see it as a true Domme / sub or Mistress / slave relationship (whether money is involved or not) then it is about serving and pleasing her rather than your own desires. It can be about limit pushing but it can also be that she really enjoys an activity that you don't (but isn't across a limit) and you submit to it for the higher purpose of bringing hee pleasure.

It takes strength to put her needs and wants over your own, especially if you are a client who is paying money for that experience. Also, some relationships extend beyond the session doors and may include limit pushing. The fact it does that is also something that is negotiated but that may make your specific limit lost a suggestion rather than actual limits.

As a general matter, great acts of courage, self-sacrifice and so on - normally stem from submission to a higher purpose. The self alone seldom satisfies the need for such action. One achieves remarkable things because one is knowingly humbled.

So submission is always a paradox of qualities and virtues. The notion that it is merely a form of weakness is silly. I would argue that the inability to say no to ego is a great weakness. And further that the one who can't do that is the most likely to tell you that submission is weakness.

BDSM is a paradox for all of us. I lead or address about 20 meetings a week. It all looks quite alpha to the untrained eye. But I can't wait to be bound, gagged, feminized and relieved of that self and the need to exert control.

One has to come to terms with the fact that the "truth" is made up of one's whole contradictory self. And you get your next merit badge when you come to understand that there is no contradiction.

I’d say it just is. To different people, submitting fulfills different wants/needs.

i can see why submission would be so appealing when you have to lead or address in that many meeting in a week.

i like your observation about great acts. sounds very jordan peterson to me for some reason. he has lectures where he talks about establishing social hierarchies in small groups. the idea of submission to a higher purpose seems to fit in with a lot of the things he talks about when he explains how we (humans in general) select leaders.