Why I don't trust findoms about anything

So, a woman actually gets attacked and posts pics on Facebook to publicize the fact she thinks the police have failed her... The Daily Mail picks up the story and publicizes it in England.

@$&+#@&$+#@ "findom" woman who goes by @ameliagoddessx on Twitter steals the pics and posts this tweet claiming it was her that was attacked and it happened at a cashmeet with a sub.

Financial Domination is a valid kink...

FemDoms who do it as part of their repertoire, do it with the same level of integrity that they do all other FemDom activities...

Randomly meeting some guy you don't know SHOULD always make you take precautions regardless of whether it is in a kink context or not...

However, shit like this (and hundreds of other scammy things) make me immediately disrespect the entire findom community and all women who act like that is what FemDom is about. I absolutely hate everything to do with them because their f'n bullshit makes life much more difficult for all client subs (finsub or not).

For no valid reason, other than trying to make money off of the sympathy of others (mostly finsubs, of course), subs are painted by this shit as dangerous and having something mentally wrong with them. Something we, as male subs, all have to fight against constantly. Even real Pro Dommes who have never had a problem or incident, see shit like this and make their protocols even more difficult for us out of fear of something that they fear could happen to them because "it happened to this woman".

Yes, I am ranting and I don't want this to turn into another debate about what are valid safety protocols, but it is hard for me to express how angry I actually get when I see shit like this. I hope this woman gets rapecancer that spreads to her bones and all her organs which causes her unimaginable pain for the rest of what I hope is a short miserable life.

Asp







p.s. for those of you that don't know... "rapecancer" is not a real thing, it is a placeholder used for whatever the worst thing that can happen to you is without actually naming something that might trigger someone who has gone through that experience.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article...ete-attack.html

I will say this, there's an argument to be made that some of these men are emotional cripples and these Fin Doms thrive and prey on them. An argument can also be made that we're all responsible for ourselves yadda, yadda as if to justify the shitty actions and thievery of some of these dubious Dommes. I'm not lumping them all into one category but there are some shitty ones out there. Then there are the men who pose as Fem Dommes online and rip people off.

Wow. That's about as low as a catfish can get.



They make it hard on legitimate ProDomme's too. But don't get me started on that . . .

This is what really gets me.
It's not just the catfish findoms who I dislike, men or women who use findomming as an opportunity to run scams, but even the "legitimate" findoms I can't exactly stand.
Maybe it's just play that I can't understand, but you'll see many of them brag about the fact that they can get guys addicted to dropping hundreds of dollars at a time on them, ignoring any of their other financial responsibilities. Brag about the fact that they can get these guys to come back even when they've "given it up" like a bad addiction. And these are the supposedly legitimate findoms and pro-dommes who tweet about their findomming.

It's also just a massive turn-off in general to see dommes begging for money every other tweet, but maybe that's just me.

I with you on all that you mention. There is one in particular who always gloats about Her "accomplishments" and money etc. Now She is doing what could be considered begging because hard financial times to what extent I truly don't know but enough to be asking for money in some sort of fund raiser way that I think should be illegal. I put "accomplishments" in quotes because I don't give a fuck what anyone says, when one sells sex or sex work, the playing field is not level to that of other careers. The entitlement a lot of times isn't either. Sex sells, everyone knows that. I know there's overhead in the BDSM business but the hourly rate is on the level of lawyers and doctors and I seriously doubt the training, schooling, hard work doesn't equal what they have to go thru.

I see some Ladies who work hard at it and are very ethical and I admire them for it, but again, the playing field is not level and that's life, right? I could get into the 10s of thousands of dollars I spent on my education and equipment for pursuing my passion as a career and the pay has in a lot of ways, gotten worse. I've complained about this before on max and I got to a point in my life where I got tired of hearing myself complain about something that will not improve, so I started another business and I'm even working on a 3rd business in addition to my 1 st business, being a musician. Anyway, I got a little off track as I usually do. Lol! A.D.D. perhaps! Lol!

Mistress Ayn, I'd love to see you get started on this topic!

Sometimes I think if I see another cam girl, stripper, wannabe porn star, or third rate baby Domme, begging for someone to pay their supper/bar bill on Twitter. I'll throw myself off the West Cornwall Covered Bridge!

Reason number 6543900000000 why I hate Twitter.

First of all, let's not conflate findom manipulation (which is a skill.. just a very scummy one) with Pro Dommes and sessioning. The amount of equipment, location & travel expenses, advertising, knowledge of both the human psyche and the physical body that the top of the class Pros build over time easily rivals or exceeds what a lawyer does by taking an extra few years of classes, doing so internship and passing a bar exam at the beginning of their career.

The barriers to entry are much lower, but explain how a lawyer must limit what they eat and how they work out constantly in order to maintain a model's body? How they have to scramble against soceity to even advertise for business... Working hundreds of hours on social media only to have Twitter/Instagram/Tumblr randomly shut down all their work by closing their account. How a lawyer has to pay by the hour or the day to even have a place to work unless they build their own place, which can be raided and everything seized under bs RICO laws.

But, in all honesty, that has nothing to do with the hourly rate. Social workers and teachers have to have as much training as a lawyer to be certified in some states and make nothing compared to them. Anyone can do plumbing and charge $125 an hour, but in order to actually have a legitimate business as a plumber you have to spend years in apprenticeship and tens of thousands of dollars in equipment. How much these people want to make for their effort at getting the proper credentials and having the right equipment doesn't matter.

Is a pro baseball player worth $40 million a year based on the amount of training they did? Are models, actors or rock stars worth what they make based on how much "training, schooling, hard work" they did before landing those choice gigs? Hell no... the difference between a musician who has a real job to pay their bills and a rock star who lives in a mansion is a combination of inspiration and luck, not how much practice and work they did.

For Dommes, its not that sex sells, its about the free market and what matters is what someone is willing to pay someone for their skills. Just like every other field. A Domme can ask for $1000 an hour and if she can convince someone to pay that, then she is worth it. If a Domme only changes $75 an hour, then that is what she is worth (and can probably make more than a teacher or social worker for the same amount of hours). Do you think lawyers and doctors all charge the same rate or that their rates are based on their training? Nope... Its based on what they can get for their skills... Same as all the Dommes we know and love around here and elsewhere (even the scummy-ass findumbs).

Yea... But that's Your shit and i was being selfish and ranting about my shit instead :p

I think your entire post is spot on Asp, but especially knowing the human psyche and knowledge of the physical body. That is a skill and talent that cannot be underestimated and should not be under valued. Having read about Dommes and experiencing a Domme who are adept at understanding the human psyche leaves me awed. Most days I dont understand people or why they do what they do!

I saw the Twitter post you linked and what she is doing is just sleazy. Unfortunately there are bad apples in every career field. The plus side here is you can do your research and with all the resources on the Internet, you can choose wisely. Spend the time doing research and I would bet 98% of the time you'll find a legitimate professional.

I personally do not understand FinDom as a fetish, but to each their own. This seems to be an area where the importance of doing your homework is paramount. To me, seeing someone on Twitter call subs losers and muppets while demanding these same subs pay their lunch bill is obnoxious. I'm confused as to why anyone would give away their hard earned money to someone who seems to be nothing more than a spoiled brat. Her words and actions do not come across as humiliation, but as mocking denigration towards people. As for what she did, she's a sorry excuse for a human being, and definitely not worthy of being called a Domme.

Thanks, you just explained to me what I already know but I appreciate the effort. I disagree with you saying it far exceeds what a lawyer spends on their schooling business etc. There are exceptions but more often than not, this isn't the case from what i've seen in my 28 yrs in the scene. It just ain't the truth. Also, the education a Doc, lawyer or skilled pro musician will more often than not, far exceed the hours a Domme will put in to develop their craft, profession etc. Again, there are some exceptions. The other parts of what you wrote basic "Life 101"( which I don't need a lesson in) which is basically saying life isn't fair. That, I will agree with. Again I will say, I got tired of hearing myself complain about the sad state of the music business and started another business. Life goes on. I have some Fem Dom friends who are super bright, very hard working driven individuals. I also have known a lot of charlatan fuck ups. Same goes my the musicians I've known over the years.

I know that most people don't like findoms, and I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about that.

But there are women in that scene who have been around for a long time, and who always operate under the same, stable, identity, with their own photos, etc.

Not only did this woman steal the photos, her name seems to have been selected to make people think she's another woman who is in the findom scene, and who has been in it for a long time.

I don't think we'd judge more traditional BDSM dommes by what someone who stole a famous woman's identity did. I think that's what's going on here.

Obviously, most of the people on this thread dislike findom, and I'm sure there are good reasons for that. But this particular story doesn't seem like the best argument against that scene.

I disagree (although I totaliy respect you and your opinions)... I think this story is the logical conclusion of the way that findoms advertise and act on social media. On the other hand, I 100% agree that many are actually good people who care about the finsubs they take on.

On Twitter you will see me interact and joke around with several who I know... in addition my most intense and personal relationship with a Domme (who absolutely owms a piece of my heart forever) was actually with a FinDom who was very prominent in that scene several years ago (although our relationship had no more to do with financial domination than any other boyfriend/girlfriend relationship does).

However, almost all the things that I think are having a negative effect on D/s in general and Pro Domination specifically come from findom attitudes towards men that they spew all over social media, the fake ass rules they make up and call it FemDom when it isn't, and the fake shit that findoms put out there in regards to their lifestyles and how much they get paid.

This activity has leached over into the FemDom world in so many negative ways because younger Dommes think that findom is actually D/s itself rather than a fetish within it. On the flip side, and I believe this is part of Mistress Ayn's unspoken rant in this thread (that I have actually heard), it has had a very negative effect on younger subs who also have to be retrained by FemDoms into understanding what power exchange actually is about.

My rant is about the culture and the public face of findoms, not necessarily who these established women actually are as people because in that, I totally agree with you.

YES!! And traditional FemDom's aren't helping the situation either. Many Dommes I know and respect have now jumped on the findom bandwagon and are offering cash meets and other findom activities and that muddies the water even further. If I had room in my Twitter profile I would add "I don't do cash meets and I am NOT a findom" but I have more important and positive things to say with the limited character profile.

Far be it from Me to interrupt your shit. And if you stick that tongue out at Me one more time, young man, I am going to chop it off.

I keep trying to write an article about Financial Domination for my own blog and everytime I work on it I go down this negative rabbit hole and just give up. *sigh*

Very well said, asp. There is only one thing I would add . . .

Dommes can't work (bill) for 8-10 hour days, 5-6 days per week. Yes, I charge what a middling attorney charges per hour while I am in session but he/she can bill that for many more hours a day than I or any other Domme can. First of all there is not the sustainable demand for that many session hours and physically and (especially) mentally it can't be done. Personally I start to feel the mental fatigue at about the 3 hours per day mark, sustained. I might be able to "blow it out" and do 25 hours in one week, but I couldn't (or at least wouldn't want to) do that the next week or the next.

If anyone questions this or wants me to elaborate, just say the word.

I don’t question that at all. I find it very interesting and understand that sessions are intense for the Domme as well as the sub but the Domme has the added responsibility for the safety of the sub and has to remain in control of everything. If you could elaborate more it would be appreciated.

I believe findom is to Female Domination what Lumpfish roe is to Caviar!

In reagards to you implying that I was conflating Pro Dommes and Fin Doms, what part of this did you not get? " I'm not lumping them all into one category but there are some shitty ones out there"

Yes, buffalo, sessions can be intense for the Domme too. And you are correct that we need to be "on" the entire time because we are responsible for driving the session and your safety. But it's even more than that. All good sessions require a connection that to me is like giving a little piece of myself to that other person. Sometimes it's so intense that even short sessions can leave me energized - but also drained. Longer sessions take even more and "changing hats" - meaning seeing more than one client per day can be the most challenging. That "perception" or empathy that some Dommes seem to bring so easily to their sessions is costing them. Obviously it's a price we are willing to pay - over and over.

Fortunately I have the ability to let the energy build throughout the day and don't realize that I am tired (physically) and drained (emotionally) until after I have started the wind down - usually once I've eaten is when it hits me. I absolutely love what I do, or I wouldn't do it. I am educated. I have worked corporate jobs, owned my own business and put in those 60 hour work weeks - so I know what they feel like. Frankly a busy week as a Domme is more emotionally demanding than a busy week at the office but it's way more satisfying. And hey, if I need a break, I take one.

*gulp* Yes Mistress

Go back and read the part I quoted... None of that applies to findom. Which means you were bitching about Pro Domme session rates and conflated the two. I was not implying anything, I was very specifically saying you did that and that is specifically why I responded with a defense of Pro Dommes and why their rates are what they are.

Saying you understood the amount of equipment necessary is not something that applies to findoms as no dungeon or equipment is necessary for findom. Findoms are also usually not charging a set hourly session rate (except through something like niteflirt, but even that is usually by the minute), rather they are asking you to buy things that will earn you their attention. That is part of the allure of good findom over Pro for some guys... In Pro, it is fee for service and that makes the entire relationship feel transactional (and these rates are what you were referring to}.

Findom can feel more personal in that you are pampering this woman by lavishing them with gifts or taking care of their needs in a "completely selfless" manner. The findom, in turn, "recognizes your value" as a sub and rewards you as they see fit rather than with a specific action or amount of time based a set price. So, again, your rant about comparing hourly rates between doctors/lawyers and Dommes is just not a findom thing.

So, the part "I did not get” was your bringing Max Fisch style crap over here as you ranted about what Pro Dommes charge in a thread that was specifically about findoms and the kind of scammy shit this one person tried to pull under the guise of it.

I had to "Opt out" of FinDom a lot of promotional articles and retweets a few years ago. It was the standard then.

I am pleased this whole fetish is going out of style.

And yet. . . I'm gonna do just that. Hear me out though.

Not all dommes, but I do insist that someone communicates with me out of role. Some can do it all being "Mistress all the time," but I need a foil to evaluate mental health.

Most findoms rely on heavy humiliation and bullying. (Absolutely fine with in the context of a session.) The problem is, if applied relentlessly and without understanding someone's limits, it can cause someone to snap. Yes, the meek, and whimpering "paypig" couldn't get past his ATM limit, so she made it his fault and perhaps humiliated him on the street. In the right context a sexy scene, and she has probably been rewarded for that behaviour in the past. Nope, this one snaps.

I don't like victim blaming, and I am sad this happened to anyone. It was an expensive lesson for her to learn. I hope she takes it to heart.

If your business model is to prey on the perceived weak and stupid, you are not kinky, you are an asshole.

The point here is that it didn't actually happen to a findom or as part if a cashmeet. It happened to a completely different woman for an undisclosed reason and this "findom" tried to use it to create sympathy and ultimately money for herself. It is scum of the earth behavior that is not specifically emblematic of real findoms... But, IMO, is completely enabled by the culture of it.

Why don't you go back and read what I wrote? You accused me of conflating the two. Well, the two go together a lot of times these days. Dommes offer both. THe Lady (who shall remain nameless) is now offering Fin Domme services. You make some good distinctions between Fin Dommes and Reg Pro Dommes but don't tell me they are mutually exclusive or have to be. As far as your wise ass max fish remarks, you're bringing that as well to this conversation, maybe even more so.

Also, this is your thread, I'm going to make an attempt to back off and not engage you in what is really a waste of time. Things can get confusing of here at least for me as I rush through reading things etc. If I misread or misunderstood anything your post or point/s I apologize.

It is easy to mistake how someone comes across on line. My late husband and, I were long time posters on MF before we met. If I had known who he was before we met I would not even spoken to him, let alone become a close friend and, end up having a family with him. Meeting someone in person is very different than online. Kevin Hayes is a good guy. We've spent a good bit of time in person together. Everyone on the ClubDom set has liked him too. This seems to be a simple miscommunication.

BRAVO!

I agree we are talking past each other at this point and not really understanding the point that the other feels they have made. You are the bigger person for saying it first, but I also want to apologize to you for what I may have misunderstood or any offense I have caused in my responses.

Thanks, I appreciate it. Onward and upward!

Thanks my friend, much appreciated.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is pretty narrow.

Most financial dominants don't really lie, unless you feel that the subjective humiliation stuff (you're a worthless loser!) is so far over the top that it's a lie.

I don't know anything about her, and am just using her name because she's one of the most famous financial dominants. But I don't think Princess Sierra lies in order to get guys to pay her. There's no fake story, there are no fake pictures. It's more like, this is who you are, this is who I am, and you need to do this.

So putting aside the question of whether or not what anyone is doing is OK, or whether it ought to be looked down on, I'm just saying that what the woman in the original story did -- lied, and pretended someone else's photos were hers, making up a fake story, etc. -- isn't really what established women in this subsection of the scene do. It's just sort of different, and coming out of a different intent.

Most people here are down on financial domination, and I get that. I think it's a perfectly reasonable position to take. I myself am quite conflicted about this stuff.

My point is mostly that since this woman is different from most other women who do financial domination, it's not altogether fair to say, because she does x, y, and z, these other women who don't do any of those things suck.

Again, I know that people here could list other reasons why they think they suck, and that's fine. On a bad day, I agree with many of those reasons. But I don't think that what this one particular woman did says much about the financial domination scene one way or another, because I don't think she's really part of it.

The essential thing that makes it financial domination is what I said Sierra does -- it's really about that mutual recognition of who the guy is, and who the domme is, and the belief that means that a tribute in exchange for nothing is appropriate.

Wow, i'm very surprised reading all of this, I assumed that dommes sessioned with like 5+ clients a day and put in like 30-40 hours a week.

This is where I have to disagree... Selling their fantasy story of a luxiourious lifestyle and constantly being lavished with gifts, is a large part of the culture of findom. Unfortunately, that just isn't true and a lot of what you see is completely made up. A $5 online gift from a sub is manipulated into a $500 one through Photoshop. A pile of gifts from Amazon is actually stuff they themselves ordered. They may be actually fanning themselves with $100 bills in a video but I have been the one behind the camera and seen a FemDom pull that from her stash of session money she made while visiting Detroit so that the findom could make that video.

I have known findoms who makes ends meet through crappy waitressing or minimum wage jobs rather than their findom activity. This is why it is not that unusual to see a findom actually begging for money to make the rent (I mean this as a general thing that you see happen over and over, not that most findoms are ever in this bad of a position).


Behind the scenes many (but certainly not all) are drug addled 20 something's popping Adderall and smoking pot with out of work loser boyfriends they may advertise as their alpha, rather than the incredibly glamorous women they portray themselves as... I have either been a direct witness to it or have been told the story of it by a friend who had shot videos with them.




Since you've invoked her, I want to say that I don't know her or anything about her so I don't want my comments from above applied to her as true. But, I will invoke a Canadian findom named Russian Queen M to bolster your general point. Again, never met her personally (although I did interact with her when doing the Domme Travel stuff, and she was nothing but class and grace when I did). However, I was hanging out with a FemDom (who is seriously slipping into findom) who had just visited with her and heard there were no drugs, that she was highly successful from a financial viewpoint and that she, and the findoms in her inner circle, worked incredibly hard across all platforms to earn that success. So, my statements are not true for 100% of findoms and Princess Sierra may be in that class as well...




This is actually the nub of our disagreement. Whereas you put the class of liars and manipulators as the outlying minority... My experience is that they actually are the majority of findoms and the one who stole the pics of a true incident, is just the worst of those.





I agree that financial domination is a valid fetish... Just like wrestling is. I don't particularly have a problem with a woman specializing in that fetish as part of a mutually beneficial relationship... Just like with session wrestlers. Where I have a problem with it is the way that findoms have specifically conflated what they do with FemDom and built a culture of lying and manipulation around this one particular fetish... Unlike session wrestlers who don't conflate the two, even when they participate in both.

FemDoms receive gifts... Sometimes, very large ones... That are not a session payment. I remember when the late Goddess Amadahy was given a brand new car, that she picked out, by a sub (again, not because she posted about it but rather because I knew her). Another Domme of mine (since retired) had a sub help her buy her first house. I, myself, even paid a large portion of a breast augmentation for a breast-cancer survivor Domme of mine who had a mastectomy years earlier.

All of these gifts come out of a caring relationship with that FemDom... So, my anti-findom stance is not about the money or amount of money. It is not about a particular findom and whether that one individual is good and honest in the way they fulfill that fetish for a willing individual. Instead it is about the entire culture of it (which is more stripper like than FemDom in the way it is about the financial manipulation of men through their crotch.. without even the honesty of the naked woman in front of you) and the way that culture of manipulation naturally leads to the heinous behavior that prompted this thread.

Haha. And we wear our boots and corset to the grocery store and we all roll out of bed looking like we do in our photos. There a lot of unrealistic ideas about our industry. Sometimes those fantasies need to be reeled in. From what I have read on MF over the years there is a great deal of resentment about what Dommes charge and the truth is if we didn't charge the hourly rate we do, we wouldn't earn a living wage.

Most Dommes do far less that what I stated.

I'm not in a place where I can write you a proper response, but I want to say something. Also, I'm going to be with family for the next couple of days, so please don't be offended if I don't hold up my end moving forward.

But here's an analogy. There are an awful lot of women in NYC who will tie you up. But if you're really into bondage, you might feel like there are maybe two or three women who are the real deal.

I'm really into financial domination. There are a lot of women out there who talk about it, but very, very few who seem real to me.

I think that part of the mismatch here is that you're counting everyone who talks about it as a findomme, including the crazy lying lady who steals photos. But to me, the number of women who really get it is very small, and I don't think of the others as being genuine.

I'm not trying to say that I'm right, and that my conception of this scene as a very small club is necessarily reasonable. To be honest, I wasn't really aware that I was thinking about it in this way until this thread caused me to examine my assumptions more closely.

But I think this is one of the main reasons we're disagreeing. I admit, freely, that most of the women the anti-findom people can't stand are genuinely awful. I can't stand them either, and have no interaction with them at all.

But it's not all like that. And while the part I'm talking about might be very small compared to the part everyone hates, it does exist.

Thank you for that response. I don’t know for sure but I think a lot or at least some guys think the Domme is just acting or going through the motions. I probably thought that way when I was younger but I realised a long time ago that was not true. I’d like to say more about this but I can’t figure out exactly what. I can see it’s a tough , rewarding and intense job. Kind of like being a shrink but with a much more intense and physical hands on vibe.

Just based on your posts here I know you are great at what you do and I hope one day I can session with you.

Hi Asp

It all circles back to what people are willing to pay for your skills.
There ARE, in fact, Findommes that are making 6 figure salaries.

po

This is something very obvious to a mistress, but many subs are unaware of it. I think you are a champion that you can work so hard. There are lots of mistresses who can do only a fraction of that, this is an emotionally demanding activity.

Unfortunately the scales are even more tilted in the favor of the lawyer. They can bill for more hours than they work, and they can leverage by using the work of associates.

While I agree only partially to your opinions (I guess I am more viscerally opposed to Findoms) I do appreciate your impeccable manners. Using uppercase She in the same sentence with begging.