Changing times and changing attitudes

I recently had a discussion with an ProDomme from another large town. She's been in the business for 20 years and I have been a pro for 10 and was a lifestyler 10 years prior to that. We both acknowledged seeing a recent shift in the attitude of subs - both current and new, but mainly new. Among recent behavior changes we noted a general lack of respect and failure to follow protocol when contacting, more cancellations and no shows, more forfeited deposits and aggressive/rude dialogue when trying to set up appointments. All of these behaviors centered around one thing - a lack of respect for our time and as people in general.

For her the change started about year ago. I noticed it about 6 months ago. She blames FOSTA/SESTA. Her thoughts are that it put our business in the news and brought out the wrong type of client and that it made existing clients more paranoid. She also cited the polarization caused by politics and beyond.

I also partially laid the blame on divisive issues. I think things like the Me Too movement have caused some animosity between the sexes. I also blamed SESTA/FOSTA but for different reasons. Since SESTA/FOSTA more Dommes have started self identifying as sex workers in solidarity with other industry professionals. My escort acquaintances have always expressed awe in how well Domme's clients tend to treat them. I think by self identifying as SWs we may have further blurred the lines which is fostering this kind behavior.

In the end we mostly agreed with each other's opinions and as a result expanded our own thoughts on the subject. What of your thoughts? Have Dommes done things to make you think of them or treat them differently? Domme's have you noticed the same thing with sub's behavior?

I don't want this to turn into a political discussion and have to move this to the politics sections, so let's keep the discussion limited to the effect some of these things have on Domme and sub behavior. I hope we have a lively discussion.

Interesting topic!

I'm French so I don't know much about FOSTA/SESTA. But I do have an opinion on the rest.

I'm thinking of two main things:
-Societywide uberisation
-The growing popularity of BDSM


•Societywide uberisation as nowadays everything tend to be only more of a service than a exchange between two people. This could lead to pro dominas being seen more as domination supplier than actual women, actual persons, that deserve the same respect if not more than anybody else, even if you pay for it.

•BDSM has gained a lot of popularity in past few years, for the better and the worse. 50 shades of grey for example has been a major factor in this.
This point concerns only new clients though. The thing is, BDSM could now know more men who want to try new things, who want a thrill ; than "true" submissive men for whom BDSM is way more than a thrill, and whose profil is more encline to show women a lot of genuine respect.



Also, I think that Twitter could be a factor. Pro-dommes express themselves more, as women and not only through their profession, which is cool. It's not rare to see a domina mocking an anonymous client or saying all about what they think is wrong about clients or men in general.
I will accept being blamed for my clichés, but I do believe than submissive men have more often a fragile emotional construct than the regular man with regular interests for sex and women. To feel targeted by this kind of mocking or blaming tweets from a pro-domme, a woman who they thought was supposed to accept them, comfort them, could lead to some sort of disdain I think. The disenchantment to see that pro-dommes are actually the same women they can cross in the street.


Your point with the growing dommes identification as SW is VERY relevant I think. Your topic is a subject I had already questioned myself about, but I didn't think of that.
It is a shame to say, but I think that to a lot of men, being a SW (a "regular prostitute") is somehow shameful and disgraceful. So as you said, pro-dommes identification as SW could impact how these men see them and the respect they are showing. True!

I am going to wade into this. While agree with you on most points, I will have to respectfully disagree on some, and perhaps you will at least see my point.

I feel that SESTA/FOSTA is a large part in what we are seeing with client bad behaviour, though, face it, this is nothing new. BackPage made the entry into professional domination so easy that there were a lot of women who just put out a shingle without even knowing what it was, hoping to make a quick dollar. It was what it was. Now there are a flood of "subs" who are used to this almost "casual" "low end" service, without the constant influx of these dommes the guys are contacting us. Surprisingly, we don't care what Queen Rhianna did 2 years ago for what price. It doesn't fly with us. Arguments ensue--if you allow them.

Gender roles/expectations/behaviours are changing. Me Too was the earthquake, but aftershocks remain. I wish it could be so easy as: "Nice tits!" "Oh, yeah, thanks, but that doesn't really come across as great as you think it does." "Really? I meant it as a compliment." "I think that you did, but it makes me feel uncomfortable in this context." "Oh, I did not know. I will be better next time." Men are angry trying to find their way in this new paradigm. Women are not always taking the higher ground and using it to justify themselves being the asshole now. It is a big confusing mess and I see it getting worse before it gets better. I do prefer the growing pains to not growing at all.

Where I do disagree with you, and we have touched on this before, is the SWer line. Perhaps we are very different SWers than the woman on the street. But I turn that back on the clients. NO WOMAN should be treated poorly, no matter what. I am not a female supremacist, but a stanch humanitarian. I am probably not going to change your mind, but I hope maybe you can take pause to think about why it would ever be okay to treat some one less.

I say this as I also know many different flavors of SWers. It is not what you are willing to do per se, but how you interact with people. I know escorts that are treated like they are made of gold.

Yes things are changing. It is up to all of us to make it in the best way we can.

I am guilty of this, too. I wish I would not, but sometimes I receive requests that are so ridiculous, I can't help myself. 20 years later, I still can't believe the absurdity of my craft. I do think it is a mistake when dommes screen shot conversations trying to humiliate or "sick Twitter" on potential clients who perhaps have misstepped. I think this only serves to aggravate the situation. Will he realise his error? Or will it make him angrier and potentially dangerous. "Men worry they will be laughed at. Women worry they will be killed." This is still a thing.



This may be a better way to say what I tried to say in my other post.

I totally understand why you feel this could be mistake, but when pointing this out I didn't mean to blame pro-dommes who do this.
I want to believe that dominas, even the most caring ones, don't have to take responsability for some men's insecurity and adapt their behavior to them. It's up to those men to change, and yes changing is hard and hurtful, it's life.

On the other hand, I agree with you when you question the usefulness of such public mockings tweets.

I think that nobody is to blame here. Pro-dommes receive so much insulting/weird emails that it can be emotionally challenging, so it's actually healthy wanting to share that, I think. But men behind these emails usually are in deep distress... And potentially dangerous, indeed.


But publicly mock men who sent an awkward/inappropriate email or text but not insulting nor ultra weird (like "bury me alive pls mistress"), is indeed a mistake I think. Maybe you were talking only about those tweets. I 100% agree.



Sad and true. So sad that it's true!

I don't know what would cause such a change, but maybe it's one of those situations in which the medium is the message?

I mean, magazines like DDI and sites like this one (and MF as well) tend to create a feeling that you're part of a community of sorts.

But on Twitter, everyone is sort of atomized, everyone is just another face in the crowd. And people tend to be pretty nasty there.

Just to underscore the point, we don't know each other, but here we are, having a conversation -- it's something that makes sense here, but which would seem strange on Twitter, where I would just be a random guy replying to your tweets.

Twitter is a major factor in everything bad! It's hard to properly train subs amidst the Twitter findom/femdom phenomenon!

Many of these so-called Mistresses have no experience, having never done a real session. Their only real talent seems to be gyrating about in homemade "clips" and begging for money!

I believe in these "Changing times and changing attitudes" we, the experienced Dommes, need to take a strong stand against these internet charlatans.

Mistress Ayn-

I think the blurring of lines between professional domination and full-service sex work has been in effect for quite some time...and before SESTA/FOSTA. The "lumping" together of various offerings on such venues as eros.com seems to have reinforced this. And with this phenomenon has come the tendency of *some* men (I hope a minority) to view Mistresses as a commodity.

Add to this the rise of Instadommes, and the ready availability of fame for any lady who dons leather boots, grabs a riding crop, and poses "for the 'Gram." Unsolicited DMs and catfishing schemes directed at male submissives contributes to a cynical attitude (unfortunately).

What's the way through this? As I reflect on my own involvement in BDSM, I cannot help but recall applying for my very first session over 20 years ago: the application process was basically a series of short-answer essays. There was no "check the box" deal where you select, a la carte, the stuff you want Mistress to do to you. There was no "rate on a 1 to 10" your favorite activities.

What did this do? It puts the onus on the submissive and established the D/s dynamic immediately. I certainly understand why many Mistresses use the newer, check-the-box forms: it cuts down on blathering, novel-length emails and time wasters. But the unintended consequence is the approach of *some* men who view applying for a session as somewhat akin to visiting a sushi bar, pulling out the tiny pencil, and circling how many California rolls he wants.

Long story short: Mistresses should put their collective stilettos down and perhaps take a cue from the "old way." We're here to serve *You* ladies, not the other way around. And, if I'm sincerely interested in giving myself to a Mistress, I shouldn't feel inconvenienced by the bar being raised in the application process.

It's a generational thing. I don't think you'd find that someone who has been pro dommes for 20 years is going to be impolite, disrespectful, more likely to cancel or no-show today than "back in the day." But in the Twitter generation, you have people who have less experience interacting with the real world, and they're accustomed to inquiring in a few words and expecting an answer at text message speed.

I don't see FOSTA/SESTA as contributing to the problem other than perhaps reducing the amount of information about the pro domme that's accessible without making contact - and they don't know how to politely make contact. And you're dealing with people who don't really have a good sense of what your job is, so they imagine only what they expect. And they're more likely to be "Wham! Bam! (no need to) Thank You Ma'am" clients that you'd probably rather not deal with anyway.

You're going to hear from more twits as time goes on. Perhaps a good approach to keeping your sanity and your business is to prepare a thorough, detailed, and polite standard response to the "Hi - can u c me at 4 tomorrow? Will you wear read pantys" approach. The ones who are serious will get it, and hopefully those who aren't will just go away and maybe seek out someone their own age, someone more comfortable with 120 character communications.

It was getting a bit old talking about MF server issues.

Thank you for the interesting thread.

I'm not sure if it's an age thing, I see about as many older men on Fetlife use really informal and short text speak as younger guys.

I've certainly noticed the change in that almost all Dommes in the last year or so now require deposits, to deal with a real problem of time waters and no shows.

I think kink.com bears some blame here too, although they may just be an early casualty of the blurring of BDSM and the straight sex scene. It's a bit of chicken and egg, so I'm not sure which came first. But they've been so influential in exposing new people to BDSM it has to have had some effect.

Interesting topic, thanks for posting it.

While you are understandably viewing and experiencing this behavior from a BDSM perspective, I would suggest that it is just another sad example of the overall degrading of civilized norms. I believe that behavior is enabled and to a great extent the byproduct of the availability of communication through digital channels that is both unaccountable and anonymous.

Because there is so little face to face, or even voice to voice communication, it has become easier to treat people with disrespect.

This type of behavior is growing more common in all aspects of society. The normalization of this behavior, along with a universal sense of entitlement are degrading civility everywhere.

These rude and disrespectful "subs" feel entitled to your time and attention simply because that's what society has taught them. Since they are "considering" using your skills, they feel entitled to say or react however they want.

Police officers being doused with buckets of water ? No problem, you work for the public so the public is entitled to do whatever they want and the drenched cops have to just sheepishly walk away. How many online clips have you seen where someone goes berserk because their order was slow in coming or incorrect at the drive up window ?

Everyone is entitled to everything the way they want it, when they want it and for what they want to pay for it. And they are also "entitled" to react as badly as possible when someone disabuses them of that notion.

Sad to say but that's where society is.

Some old people act like children when you let them on to the playground. I'm 76, and I tend to be fairly casual when writing to or about dommes here (and I've been accused of being disrespectful, too), but if I'm exchanging private e-mail, I'm on my best behavior.

As always, you have offered up some amazing insight and a well written post.

Regarding social media - a big YES of agreement on your thoughts about that - on so many levels that it's dizzying.

1. Subs often say they like Twitter because it gives them a better sense of us as people. Maybe the days when we were more of a mystery were better. Familiarity breeds contempt. We are not perfect and when potential subs see us acting imperfectly, as you mentioned, it could erode the pedestal we have been up on.

2. As MistressNumber1 stated there are so many newly minted "dommes" on Twitter that it gives the appearance that a good Domme is easy to come by.

3. Which brings me to this - FINDOMS- which I left out of my OP and I think someone else brought up in a thread. Like the SW label the lines get blurred with Findoms vs RT session Dommes and I guess some guys think every woman that calls herself a Mistress or a Domme is alike. If I judged Dommes only from what I see on social media I would think the lot of them were greedy, grasping, narcissistic and not particularly bright - because the majority of "dommes" on Twitter are wannabe FinDoms. As an example, a Domme follows me on Twitter - I glance at the profile, it looks normal, I follow her back as a courtesy and then my feed gets filled with "loser send me money now" tweets. I was sucked in momentarily and I am a Domme! **End of FinDom rant**

By the way, I got off FaceBook about 2 years ago. I keep a profile up so I can post events but I don't log in for updates or post. I told my friends that if I didn't get off Facebook I would end of hating them all. Bitching and bragging. Crying or crowing. I just could't take it anymore. Maybe subs are getting to the same point too.



That is exactly what I meant. Thanks for the expounding on this.

Your being in France brings a different perspective to this that I am curious about and I would like to propose the following questions:

1. Have you noticed this change as I and the other Domme discussed? I am wondering if this attitude change is strictly a U.S. condition since FOSTA/SESTA is a U.S. law.

2. If you have noticed, for how long?

Many people here have offered some good explanations for a building attitudinal change, but for me it was like a switch went off around the first of the year.

Yes, we have had this slow creep of things like sex in films, like Kink.com as someone mentioned. There was 50 shades that brought mainstream attention. And social media didn't just start being what it is in the past year. I agree that all these things attribute to the condition but I can't reconcile the sudden change. I guess it could just be the eventual backlash but that just doesn't seem to fit for me. What are your thoughts?

And yes, I agree, times change. We just have to figure out how to adjust and I am sure we will. I am just an inquiring mind that wants to know the "why" behind things in the hope that I can "fix it" or make the transition easier.



I don't disagree with you on any of this.

Oh, thank you!
I'm still unconfident with my english, I'm so glad to know I can be understood with the precision I like to have.
Plus, I've learned a new word: dizzying


To wrap up my opinion with the social media thing and agree even more with you, one of the things I like the most about pro-dommes is the "character-building" part, including that part of mystery, so as the professional photoshoots and the thorought website. That character-building is one of the reasons why I'm willing to pay for a session, instead of just finding kinky private partners.
And yes, using Twitter the same way as any woman next door does can sometimes damage this character-building I think! In addition to hurt some subs's feelings, as already said.


Do you mind if I quote your opinion on Findoms to put it in my upcoming article about it? I won't mention your name. I couldn't agree more with you, and coming from a pro-domme will only give these thoughts more credit, way more than coming from a random sub.

I 100% agree. I am also guilty of the occasional rant and have to watch Myself when it comes to social media.

On another note, I once told a male friend of Mine that I was considering writing a blog post on the value of a tribute - you know, all the things that go on behind the scenes that the tribute ultimately covers. His advice as to skip it. "Don't destroy the fantasy." Too much information can do that.

Yes, you do have permission to quote Me in the article you mentioned. Please provide us with a link when it's done. I am sure many of us here would be interested in reading it.

This is a great discussion and you have known me for quite some time. I think it boils down to respect for people especially Women. Some may not like this but here goes. At a very young age we (my brothers and I) were taught ABSOLUTE respect for Women. Revere them, protect them, help them, and be there for them at all times. You see something negative happening you deal with it! This was multi-generational starting with our great grandmothers, grandmothers, mothers, and so on. It was all about The Golden Rule. This I taught, no, make that drilled into my son but I took it much further. Rely on no one, stay away from the government, rely only on yourself and your family, be there when needed. Work your tail off, earn everything you have and expect nothing. There are winners and loser and ATTITUDE is what makes all the Difference. Be your best self and do what you love and do it hard. Give everything you have without holding back and others will trust you, rely on you, look up to you and see as a person of character and ALWAYS respectful of others, especially Women.

Back to your point, I think it all starts there with the nuclear family. Treat your children bad and they will treat others that way. Women in many ways, especially those Professionals who have been around a while have seen the breakdown in families and societal values and respect people show for others. It is almost impossible to have a meaningful discussion with today's generation unless they were taught to be free thinkers and that it is ALL about building and developing relationships. Henceforth I work to build relationships with the Women I meet. Sorry, but almost all men suck.

I, for one, am so grateful to you all, ProDommes, SW's, and others and even I have made huge mistakes and at times, was rude and sometimes an a-hole, but in the end I know I am a good person and my relationships with Dommes has gone on for a very long time. I am not afraid to take responsibility and apologize and as I said to my Mistress, when things go bad or there are problems, it is 95% me and 5% her. I needed to grow even at my old age.

There are many thoughts here, but I am sorry to say I think it will get much worse in the very near future for Dommes and SWs until the hate stops, societal values shift, respect and open, honest and meaningful discussion returns, and we all realize we need each other. That is impossible in today's political arena and has been that way for more than 25 years.

I know I am profoundly grateful to Mistress Ayn, Mistress Ultra Violet, and my Mistress because you all allowed and enabled me to be me and to live my best life. I love all of you and as my sissification, feminization, slut training, chaste lifestyle and dependancy on my Mistress for any relief or pleasure continues, I get more in touch with letting go of everything and being a good respectful slave, client and sometimes even a friend.

What a heartfelt reply, teddy. I hope you know how highly I think of you and what respect I have for you as a person. Your and my values are well aligned as I know them from the many discussions we have had in person both inside and outside the Dungeon. Plus you are a loyal sweetheart of a person and I value that very much.

Yes, times are changing and I do see a rocky road ahead of all of us as we shift to accommodate the change. Change is the key word here because so much is in a state of flux and polarization. I also think women have to take some responsibility too. We are sending mixed signals that men don't know how to deal with properly. Hell, I don't always know how to deal with it.

The other day a man opened a door for me as we both entered a shop. I thanked him and he said, "I never know what is the right thing to do anymore. I've been told off by women for opening a door before." WTF? If I had gotten to the door before him, I would have held it open for him. That's common courtesy.

On Twitter I recently read one Domme complain that she had to stand up on the train because none of the men offered her their seat. I don't expect a man to give up his seat for Me because I am a woman. A train is not a Dungeon. It's real life. One the one had we want equality but also want to be treated "special" - or at least some of us do and men can't read our minds. I have been guilty of this too and I am not sure what the answer is. These are major growing pains.

As women take more power in the workplace and life in general things are going to change. For future generations of subs and Dommes things might get even more tricky. If a man deals with a dominant woman at work on a regular basis that has the ability to fire/promote, he might not feel the need/desire to submit in a Dungeon. This could be an interesting new topic for discussion.

To be perfectly honest I haven't observed this trend at all. There have always been shitty clients and I don't think twitter or dommes IDing as sex workers or #MeToo have anything to do with it.

I do think SESTA/FOSTA might have emboldened some of the shitty clients/timewasters -- those who pay attention to such things may have concluded that we're desperate for money and willing to put up with a lot more bullshit. I don't think this accounts for a huge difference though because lot of those shitty clients/timewasters don't really know much about SESTA/FOSTA at all. After all, there are very frequent posters here who seem pretty confused about it. People who aren't involved in our worlds often have no idea it even exists.

Clients who find me via twitter tend to be more well-behaved than the ones who find me via other methods. "Familiarity breeds contempt" and all that but people who see me as a whole person rather than as some BDSM provider on an ad site tend to treat me with more respect. Not a hard and fast rule by any means but a definite trend I've noticed.

Thanks for adding to the discussion. I was hoping to hear from Dommes form other geographical areas.


That is good to hear. It gives me hope that this is not a trend but just a phase.


I agree. Anytime I have mentioned it, subs have no idea what I am talking about.

Speaking for me, I would love to know all of these practical expenses and where goes a tribute in details.
I actually find all these practical aspects to handle very attractive when it comes to pro-dommes. You Ladies "have" to take great care of your look, but also have an above-average interest and understanding of human psychology, while in the same time be able to run a genuine business and constantly stay visible on the internet in a very competitive environment. It's hard to think of another activity that has got this all-around package for only one person. Oh, and did I mention the guts that it take to meet potentially dangerous strangers?

All of this seems very Alpha to me

But no doubt, for some subs, probably the majority of them, that would be killing the fantasy!




I shall! Thank you.

Thank you for opening, as you usually do, such an interesting subject. It seems that it touched a raw nerve and created lots of subtopics, many deserving their own threads.

To me the biggest differentiation is not sex but age. I think that the new generation has attention deficit syndrome, cannot focus for more than 8 seconds on a subject, and a lot of the rest follows. Tweet is good, email is bad. Facebook is preferable to picking up the phone. Short bursts of superficial multicast messages are preferable to a serious one on one conversation.

You see these from men, I see it from women, including mistresses. As I said I think that age trumps sex.

I agree with you 200% on the problems of equating a mistress with a SW. To me it seems this started a few years ago. I fought, hard, against it, I got so much push back that I am not doing it any longer, although I totally disagree.

It is obvious that SW do things that dommes don't, and vice versa. It is way more difficult to train as a mistress, and I do not understand why they insist they are just SWers.

I noticed on this matter a division by tier and age too.

There are many factors which increase the toxicity of the exchange and increase acrimoniousness. For me Me Too is one of them, I had a lot of respect for Catherine Deneuve (pas moi) I wish there were more like her.

It is true that now men are caught between a rock and a hard place, I am extremely annoyed by the kind of tweets you mention, especially because I think I could always win a fair verbal fight, but it would be ungentlemanly.

Here I can explain the tier thing. While technically I follow more mistresses on Twitter in reality I interact only with 3. What I noticed is that they are all open minded but sometimes there are second and third tier mistresses who join the conversation and they are rude.

Something else, no matter how obscure a 15 year mistress is, she will have a few devoted subs liking, echoing and repeating everything she says (chaque sot trouve un plus sot qui l'admire).