Has femdom split into two different things?

For a long time, there's been a kind of tension between traditional BDSM/femdom people and the findoms and their fans.

I started out as a traditional person, and over the years I've moved to the findom side. I don't feel like that's been a positive thing, and I don't mean to defend that scene here. But it seems to me that we're talking about two fairly different things.

Because on one hand, the traditional femdom scene is rooted, at bottom, in actual face to face interactions. That's what prodommes do. Sites like this one and the hang were based on the idea that there is a community of people who want those face to face interactions, and who want a web site that can help them do that.

The other side of it is very much rooted in online and video interactions. They're not really even interactions, because it's one sided -- women who sell clips to lots of different men probably don't even know that most of their customers exist, or what their names are. Even fairly large findom tributes are fairly anonymized in many instances.

The themes on the findom side have shifted in directions that makes the difference between that scene and traditional femdom more pronounced. One woman who makes videos talks about "pornsexuality" -- the idea that there are men whose natural sexual orientation is with porn, rather than with people. It's very common for POV videos to talk about the viewer as someone who can't have relationships with real people, who prefers the virtual relationship with the porn performer who doesn't even know they exist.

For a long time, we've talked about things as if there's one big scene, and within that scene there are people who are ethical and people who are unethical. Another way of putting that would be to say that there's a single scene, and a right way to do it, and the people from the findom part of it aren't really doing it the right and ethical way.

But it seems to me that as the two parts of it drift further and further apart, they seem to have less and less to do with one another. The experience and meaning of each is quite different, and I believe there's very little overlap between the people who do one versus the other.

I used to be a very enthusiastic client for face to face sessions, but over the years my social anxiety and bad feelings have gotten the better of me, and I am now quite firmly ensconced in the other camp. I wish I were less stuck in it than I am, and do not feel particularly good about it right now, so I'm not trying to argue that people should accept it. But to a certain extent, it is what it is.

What I am saying, I guess, is that over the course of my life I've done both, and I don't really think the two things have that much to do with one another. They seem fairly different to me. And so, I think it probably makes sense for people to start using different names for each of them, and to start operating with the understanding that they are separate and distinct communities.

This would be helpful, and is perhaps even necessary to defend the integrity of the people who do face to face BDSM, given the somewhat toxic nature of what happens on the other side.

I don't think so.

I consider findom to be a subset of professionl femdom, a specialty.

I tend to agree.
Yet, I think we'll just have to set apart findom by actual and trustworthy Mistresses, and the rest.

I think that findom actually is a BDSM practice, a part of our world. But findom itself, as a practice, is splitting up. So I don't think that Femdom is splitting up. It is the findom practice which is.


Indeed, I noticed it now is a - so said - easy access to money for girls (yes, girls) who don't know nothing and think that it is all about insulting, hurting and degrading men. It's not good for all possible reasons, including lower the standards and the huge involvment and work a pro domination activity is. So it even hurts pro dominas reputation.

I'll soon write an article about Twitter and its Moneymiss trend, the BDSM fast-food. I'm following a bunch of accounts to screenshot things that get my attention.

The worst thing I've seen so far, was a medical play with rusty material and unsterilized needles. Well, lighter-sterelized. She justified herself saying that lack of hygiene was a Fetish. Yeah.

Great.
Of course, my post only goes for "Money misses" who offer in-person sessions. But this type of findom actually seems to be more popular than the online-only type.

It's so interesting that you posted this because I was going to elaborate on similar thoughts on the "busting through limits" thread (which is maybe over at MF -- hard to keep track these days).

I'm a bit like you in that I used to be enthusiastic about face-to-face but now session very infrequently. It's been over a year. I have done phone/online, though, which has had a strong findom component -- and this after being in the past quite negative and judgmental about that scene. My thing is that I only talk to one woman, and she's not someone who has a clipstore or anything. She has a strong specialty in findom but it's not the only thing she does. And IRL she does play in the lifestyle. Recently we did a multi-day session that drifted into TPE and involved heavier findom than I have ever done. It was definitely a heavier, more intense mindfuck than I've ever experienced in a one to two hour session face to face. I would say now that if I'm in a submissive frame of mind I feel the draw much more to that kind of scene than a face to face one, and, like you, I'm not sure that's a positive thing. In fact, after my recent experience I vowed to try to do an in-person session next -- however long from now that may be.

I think aging and changes in the NY scene have something to do with it. I'm often hesitant to book in advance just because I'm not sure what my mood and energy levels will be like on the day. I'm not so into meeting new dommes (maybe a bit of social anxiety there too). I'm less drawn to dommes much younger than me, which rules out so many new dommes. And I think my interest in taking pain has kind of plummeted. But it's also true that the mental manipulation taking place in an online findom scene has a kind of crack cocaine element to it, combining as it does the various compulsions that have arisen in the digital age with all the traditional power exchange dynamics.

So I guess I'm in between the two poles you wrote about. My online findom play is very personal and with someone I have played with in some form (all online/phone) for years. The session I just wrote about ended with a couple of hours of conversational aftercare (off the clock). It's far from the kind of anonymous tributing that you see on Twitter. As for that kind of findom play -- binging on clips, anonymous tributing, being a kind of fan -- I do agree with you that at this point it's its own thing, quite divorced from traditional SM.

I wonder why you guys consider clips buying or phone sessions as findom? (I'm genuinely asking).
You are buying an actual service, the same way that John Doe pays for regular porn or chatline and he's not into findom.

Findom wouldn't be more buying gifts and sending tribute for nothing other than her to exist? Like Jasmin Mendez for example, she seems to be very good at it.

In my case, the findom is within the phone session or even outside of it -- a text demanding immediate tribute, for example.

I don't consider buying a clip findom -- but if a domme were to order a sub to buy every clip on her store, I would. (I'd also consider it findom if a domme made clips instructing a slave to tribute and he did -- it's impersonal but still within the findom dynamic.)

I do agree that FinDom is a subset of BDSM, but it is not at all something I enjoy. Do I like it when a trusted slave spoils me? Sure. The constant trolling on both sides on line, however, I am out of that. I don't see it as "free money from pay piggies" I see it as beneath me and begging.

Though not kinky, I somehow feel the findom thing and "Instagram Model" thing go together. Not my thing. Slave up and come into my dungeon to serve me in person. None of these games.

Interesting question. Many dommes who offer face to face sessions also offer financial domination, so it seems like one thing is a subset of the other. But I have followed dommes on Twitter and know it is possible to build a 24-7 fantasy world that revolves almost entirely around the Internet with very little personal interaction between domme and sub being necessary. It's possible that you are right and Internet findom and traditional domination are evolving into two independent but related things. Findom was never a fetish of mine so I have a very limited understanding of it. I deleted my Twitter account a while ago and have since gone over to the face-to-face camp almost entirely.

+1

So cool to see a Lady like you saying this. Coming from a random sub, it's easy to be seen as bitter or something like that!

I agree.

I don't disagree with you about the the new crop of findom practitioners and the Instagram model thing. I am probably just as down on the twerking twentysomethings posting their brunch bills and asking for a sub to pay for it as you are.

I just think that there are high-level dommes who do this as a form of mental/psychological domination and, speaking from experience, those buttons can get pushed just as hard as a cane stroke. But, yeah, you have to have the stomach and will to go there, and I think that the findom scene in general is probably pretty depressing and on whole less "healthy" than face-to-face BDSM.



I would love to on the next trip to Paris! Both the OP and I are people who played face to face in the pro scene and now for whatever reason -- perhaps an antisocial one -- are gravitating to online. I would really like to get back to just being in the room with the person who is dominating me.

My possibly overly-judgemental feelings. But first, two bits of context:

• There are recovery groups for findom clients (or victims). You don't find that anywhere else in femdom, for the most part. If there's a foot fetish anonymous, I haven't found it. But there ARE such groups for clients and former clients of findom. The language they use often reminds me of 1. recovering alcoholics and drug addicts, and 2. victims of spousal abuse. The language makes it clear something isn't right in parts of this activity. Those in recovery are traumatized.
• Go find yourself a forum that's focused on, for example, camgirls, or strippers. I've read some, and find that discussion of how to be a findom is very common. These girls are major hustlers, and they're interested in findom as a quick hustle. The toxic language use and contempt with which they discuss clients is pretty eye-opening.

So, putting those things together, you'll understand why my basic impression is that much (not all) of findom is an absolute cesspool, of clients who are often addicted to the point of being self-destructive, and the toxic repulsive women who seek them out to exploit them.

Note, that doesn't mean I don't think findom play can be a healthy form of femdom. I've met any number of dommes who add it in responsibly. But to me, there isn't a split between femdom and findom. There's no femdom/findom split. The split is within findom itself. Some methods of findom are practiced responsibly and can be the healthy celebration of female domination that any other femdom practice is. And some methods of femdom are exploitative and toxic, basically the worst toxic people seeking out, manipulating, and exploiting men who aren't in control of themselves.

My guess is that the form of addiction that findom is closest to is gambling addiction. In both money itself is at the core of the rush that the addict feels.

This is s very interesting piece that you've obviously given a great deal of thought. You start with 2 paragraphs about findom. You follow this with 3 paragraphs dealing with "pornsexuality" contrasting it with face to face sessions. However after that you want to collapse pornscualty to findom. I am not seriously into findom though I have on a few occasions done things with a little bit of a vibe similar to findom. However I have gone through phases where I wandered into pornsexuality and eschewed face to face sessions. This was BDSM related but had nothing to do with findom.

I am not alone, that is for sure.

Ugh, yes. Have some dignity. I do want to separate myself from them.



This is true. There are some really good ones, like Sierra, for whom I have a lot of respect.

. . .that this may be inspired by a tweet that made the FemDom Twitter lose its collective mind.

This is The Tweet.

Pretty gross.

But we also all lost our minds over this one, too. (It was deleted and came back so there are not the 500+ comments including a debate that she was okay doing permanent damage, because he asked for it.) And that is "Classic Femdom," only done poorly.

People suck. I try not to be one of them and so should everyone else.

I think I saw a domme's reaction to that tweet. I don't want to mention her, because she doesn't really have anything to do with this, and might not agree with what I'm saying.

But her tweet was sort of like, the findom sucks, she's a shitty domme. For a while, I had been thinking that findoms and the woman who made the tweet were pretty different -- that they were living on separate planets, more or less.

I believe that there's a big divide between doing things face to face vs. never meeting in person. That's kind of the main idea on the table. People tend to be in one camp or another.

I know that the lines seem blurry -- it's pretty common for women who do in person sessions to do niteflirt, or to have tribute buttons on some site. But I'd be surprised if many of them are actually taking in much money through them. It's more like, everyone loves free money, and if some guy wants to pay, here's a way he can do it. But she's not really out there making it happen.

It's been a long time since I sessioned at all, much less regularly, but I was very into it for a long time. At one point I was seeing someone once a week. I used to visit NYC to session (I have since moved here) and on one trip I did three sessions in a single day.

But now I've been "stuck" in the findom world for a while. The idea of having a face to face session seems almost unthinkable -- I would be surprised if I ever do it again, despite the fact that it would, in face, be cheaper, and I live in a city with lots of dommes.

So for me something has changed, and it seems natural to think of the two things as being different, as my own relationship to them seems and feels quite different.

Also, FWIW, a lot of people have said, I think findom is part of BDSM. So do I. And I think it's a thing people should be free to do. I mean, I have to think that, as I do it. I wasn't trying to say that findom isn't BDSM, or that it's this thing that ought to be suppressed.

I don't really know anyone in the scene now, except for a couple of women I have been friends with for a long time. But a while back I did -- I met many of the most famous dommes in the world socially and had friendships with some of them. I'm not saying I knew them well enough to speak for them, obviously.

But in general, they had some area they were interested in -- fetishes, or bondage, or intense corporal punishments, etc. And they took what they did seriously -- they tried to learn about it, to develop their skills. They were proud of their professionalism. And they were genuinely interested in the interactions they had with clients. Not everyone, obviously, but in every case, the women I knew had clients that were important to them, and with whom they looked forward to sessioning, not because of the money, but because of the human interaction that took place.

I could list five or seven women who make POV videos who are stars of the findom scene -- what they're doing just isn't the same sort of thing. The whole thing is looking into a camera and talking. they make a lot of money from selling clips, and some small percentage of the guys who buy them send tributes, some of them large. But they never meet any of those guys, and the men never meet them.

I'm not trying to say it's worse, just that it's really different. It's a different sort of life, it has different sorts of rewards, different sorts of pitfalls.

And on my side of things, there is an even bigger difference between being the sort of guy who is open and engaged with women in person, face to face, who is exploring things with a woman, and a guy who is more closed off, and who is watching videos, and sending money.

(Apologies for not answering everyone individually... I think I'd just be saying the same things over and over again, though.)

I realize that most people probably aren't going to agree with me here.

But when people started making femdom porn (before my time), they were basically making a representation of things that people did together, or maybe that some guy wanted to do. So maybe there'd be a movie about corporal punishment, or ball busting, or boot worship, or whatever.

I know that there was a little cheating to make it more intersting -- the scenes tended to be more extreme, and sometimes ball busting (or whatever) looked more severe on camera than it really was.

But it was still rooted in at least the idea of people being together and doing something together. And this was underscored a bit by people who would post, sometimes, about wanting filming slaves for videos, or whatever.

The clips that come out of a site like HumiliationPOV are different -- they're mostly of women looking at the camera telling the viewer that he sucks. A lot of times they plug into the reality of what's going on -- that the guy is a loser who gets off watching clips exactly like the one he's watching now.

One set of videos is about face to face interaction, and even if you're afraid to do it yourself, it's still sort of aspirational -- you sort of think, boy, I wish I could do that.

The other set of videos is about the act of watching videos -- they tell you, this is who you are, this is your life, you should lean into this, by buying all of my videos and sending me money.

Again, for me, the big divide is between a scene that's organized around the idea of face to face interactions, vs. a scene that's organized around the idea of isolation and disconnectedness.

Early on -- I think this must have been in the late 80s -- I started to see a domme regularly. And it was like, she was cool with, and enjoyed, all of this stuff that I had been keeping secret, that I was ashamed of. And it was like -- there was nothing wrong with her, she was really beautiful, and very smart, and she had a great education. So it was sort of this liberating thing.

I don't feel like this other stuff operates in the same way in people's lives.

Or, at least, not in mine.

I pretty much agree with all that wrote, and I think it's hard to argue with. But I'd say that it's like this with a lot of things in the digital age -- things people used to do together can now be done virtually by people who are, for whatever reasons (which include brain rewiring), doing them in a more isolated way. I think part of online findom has to do with the same kind of delivery of dopamine hits and such that are baked into online gaming, the Facebook news scroll, etc.

Everyone is different. I do findom, but I don't watch findom clips (I still will look at the kind of conventional clips you describe), and hate any language like "loser." If the person I do findom with were to stop, I'm not sure I'd do it again with someone else. It's very calibrated relationship at this point. It's just that I have the same nagging feeling as you about my diminishing interest in face to face. Again, though, it's different. I used to see pro dommes, would enjoy my interactions, but only got to know them on the most minimal of levels, which was fine. The woman I do findom with -- half of our calls have no play, and while I won't call us friends, it's a friendly kind of relationship, which makes the times play is involved very startling. After our last spate of calls I mentioned something about how I couldn't do it all the time because of the cost. (It would be cheaper to session with the highest-rate domme in NYC.) She said that she had given me something I couldn't get anywhere else, and I made a reference to just seeing a pro domme for $300 an hour. She laughed and said, "Yeah, but she wouldn't mindfuck you like I just did." And she was kind of right.

As I wrote previously, I would like to get back to face to face because I think it would be healthier -- which, from the vantage point of me 20 years ago, is a statement I'd be surprised I'd be making.

I agree with this. Maybe another way to phrase it is that there are people doing findom who are informed by IRL SM principles like SSC, or RACK, and feel connected to that lineage. And then there are people who have just started doing findom, and because all their experience is over the internet, they have a different relationship (or lack of relationship) to their subs and to SM in general.

I do get the support group and addiction thing. It can be a really dangerous fetish, and I think it is almost a form of edge play. I'm thankful that I have internal checks and balances that prevent me from getting too sucked in.

Agree completely, and I almost framed it exactly this way -- findom activities that follow femdom norms, principles, and activities (e.g., SSC or RACK) vs those that don't. And to see an example of "those that don't" -- a camgirl subforum where the girls discuss other "hustles" (and they do think of findom as a hustle; just that framing itself is telling), complete with toxic and exploitative language and strategies, contempt for clients, bragging and virtual high-fiving over what is clearly unethical actions, etc.

There are many reasons I would want to see you but this post alone would be enough reason.

100% agree.

Evidently I am very out of the loop when it comes to FinDom. I had someone want to do a "cash meet" when I am in Dallas. I thought he wanted to do a cafe date and actually have a conversation. Nope. He sent me this link: https://twitter.com/goddesstkelly/status/969982577032523776?lang=en

Call me crazy for saying no, but no.

Mistress Ayn, no you’re not crazy. I’m all for in person sessions. It isn’t a generational thing or me being a 20th century kinda guy. I have gotten aroused in making bank deposits for two Mistresses I knew very well. The circumstances were that they were both out of town and either needed cash or wanted a deposit for a live session. The intimacy of knowing the Mistress’ bank number was hot... but in person for me is the real deal.

I tend to be as open-minded as possible when it comes to fetishes and kinks and the like, but when it comes to findom I can't help but be absolutely repulsed by it.
To me it's not a form of play or kink, it's just a way for them to make money. The activity, in my mind, doesn't actually arouse them nor is the humiliation fun for them, they just want to get more $$$. I'm sure it can be done well outside of that, i've heard kinky stories of findom done in a non-exploitative way but genuine kinky fun, but those stories seem to be a minority IMO.

I like to give my mistress gifts, and I often will pay more than the agreed amount if i'm with a professional dominatrix ontop of a gift, but they never ask, they never beg, and they never coerce that out of me.
I've interacted with online dommes before and play with them always seems to devolve into findom, even when you say "I'm not really into that." they always try and sneak it in there and start asking for extra tribute or gifts. If you ever try and arrange something casual online on, say, Collarspace or Fetlife, you'll 99% of the time run into women who fancy themselves findommes even if they don't outright advertise that fact because they know how quickly that turns some guys away.

And the only type of domme you'll find on any social media like Twitter or the like is a findom.
As a result I don't even like playing online, i'd rather just limit myself to 100% in person sessions. With a trusted pro-domme expectations are set and I feel comfortable, mid-session i'm not gonna get a domme saying "Hey, can you go grab your wallet and give me an extra $100 in tribute?"

I feel a whole lot like the OP after 20 years pf regular live sessions. I haven't done anything in person in 12 months but i’ve replaced it with a fairly consistent findom relationship. Id view it as two different things. The dynamic, relationship, and play feels different than a one on one live session.

My first real experience with findom started in a live session. It was exciting and introduced a new element that i haven't explored before. Then i started seeking it out online. There has been some good and some bad. The interactions with my domme are more frequent and I've been able to explore some kinks that i just couldn't do live. Plus they are really easy to setup. Maybe it is instant gratification.

I also miss the face to face interaction. I can tell if the findom sessions are what is taking me away from it or not. But i cant take pain like i used to and my kinks trend towards humiliation anyway. My findom budget is probably double the cost of my session budget but i find value in it. Its not just pay this bill and go away. Ive got a good dynamic and a great creative domme. Clips, skype, cam etc. Money is just adding in an additional humiliating element that i find exciting. Its does feel a little like an addiction but hey ive always taken the approach of “its my kink” so why not do what feels right.

https://twitter.com/cumdump1313/status/1161406129634795520
I think this is post on Twitter is fairly relevant to the thread. To me it's an example of how findomming is getting metastasized and kind of changing attitudes in the femdom world.
I don't use Twitter much at all so I don't get so many DMs from findommes there, but any kink related social media site and that's basically my inbox as well, and is part of why i've grown to kind of dislike financial domination.

YIKES!

I stand corrected. I never thought anything could be so sad and cringey as a domme's DMs. Def works both ways.

Alex, maybe I am very biased against findom which I equate to lack of integrity. But talking about your problem, I think it is very difficult to find a "face to face" partner who is not a professional mistress.

I think that if all you want to do is talking your chances of finding a partner are much better if you make the effort and look long and hard enough.