there is a domme who has clips for sale and a significant number of her clips are on her tricking, trapping or seducing guys/sub into various kinds of submission or tortures.

she is on one end of the spectrum and there are others in which, you specify what they do, and they do it, though that is the other end of the spectrum, in terms of domination, and it is so much what the guy expects that it is not always called domination, but merely caning or whipping or a fetish transaction!

If you are a domme, where are on the spectrum from "He asks for such and such and I provide it" to "I find ways to coerce, seduce and trick the sub into things I would enjoy, even he is not directly asked about them!"?

If you are a guy or sub, which dommes have you experienced of various kinds? What were some of the seductions into or coercions into like?

In my years of sessions since the mid-1970s until around now, I've been lucky enough to meet Dominas and dominant women in session who seduced me mostly, sometimes coerced me, and stretched my boundaries. They all knew me. Here are a few adventures.

The legend Belle De Jour was my first Mistress. I was 20, she was 50, and was the sexiest older woman I ever saw. I was smitten. After the first or second session I'd call her just to say hello and hear her voice, it was such a turn-on. She indulged me a few times. One day I called and she said, "You're going to serve me and someone I'm training tomorrow." I said I couldn't, I barely had enough cash for a session with her, and she said, "Fine. Bring it. Get here at 4 pm." I did and it was basically a training session. I was basically cattle for Belle to instruct the Mistress-in-training. Most memorably the trainee digitally took from behind while Belle jammed her fingers down my throat. The trainee was dismissed after a half hour and then Belle took over and appreciated my efforts. At the time I didn't really care for being taken from behind but that would change a bit over the years. Three more times with other Mistresses I was used for a "training session." Just lucky I guess.

Years later I served a Domina who was fitness/bodybuilder. She is 5 ft. 10 in and around 160 lbs. I'm 6 ft. 1 inch and then 225 lbs. or so. Wearing high heels and a bikini she asked me, "Have you ever been lifted?" I said no. She sat down on a lounge chair and ordered me to sit on her lap. I did, she cradled me in her arms and lifted me up - in high heels no less - and threw me onto the bed, got onto it and ordered me to look up. She looked like a giantess. I got into a deep subspace with her for five years.

This Domina eventually coaxed me into GS onto my torso several times. And finally she convinced me to do our "jungle Amazon" role play with her in a video that she recorded herself. It was never released.

Finally a couple of years ago I wanted to contact a Mistress I knew in NYC off and on from the late '90s until around 2010. From the beginning she always wanted to take me from behind, always holding me against a wall, floor or bed, making believe she was humping away. She knew I wasn't a fan. Well, she finally seduced me into taking a plug, then worshiping her strap on.

Years before she wanted to do outdoor sessions. So, usually in the summer and usually at dawn on the weekends, we'd drive to some deserted waterfront or industrial area in NYC (now packed with condos) play for a bit and then return to her apartment for further punishment. And finally I told her about my GS experience. She feigned jealousy and one day, without warning, seduced me into experiencing hers.

ztrade, I think you're talking about different things here. Some of which I don't see as falling on the spectrum of "domination".

My take is that being the Dominant is about leading and making decisions for the negotiated activities in the scene. If I was assuming a role that you describe as "you specify what they do, and they do it", which I take as following a script, then you are no longer a sub but a bottom and I am no longer a Dominant but a service top.

"Seduction" and "coercion" are forms of manipulation. In a scene, which is a fantasy, they should be occurring within negotiated boundaries. For example, if someone said they had a hard limit of wearing panties, I would not try to "seduce" them into wearing some. But if no such limits was established, then, as a Dominant, I may lead my sub into doing that.

Where I fall? I'm a Dominant and that's how I like to run my scenes. I can just top someone, but I don't like being a service top. I feel too much like a puppet and that isn't something I enjoy. I do use various techniques, including seduction or "forcing" to get a submissive to do something I want, but I don't do it to the point where I would violate someone's limits.

When I see the dommes I see, I tend to have a few limits I specify, which tend to be no cbt or nip torture or ballbusting and there is a vast area which I did not list as an interest or as a "limit."

At times I have an unstated limit I did not or do not mention just cause I assume or assumed it would not come up . . .

Also, it seems from stories that some dommes write and from some reviews and accounts of subs, and it is implied in some "clips for sale," and other similar clip venues that some dommes will nudge or guide or do what they can to persuade a guy to abandon his having a limit in this area or that, and obviously, a lot of subs do. Some do it to make the domme happy; some do it because they think she is beautiful and want to be nice to her; some just change their limits over time; some do it for various other reaons.

Some subs change their limits from one session to the next. Some subs has different limits with different dommes. Some subs reportedly change their limits in a session, maybe, depending on how one reads the account.

Obviously for most dommes with most subs, the obvious violation of a stated limit would mean the guy will be upset or not come back . . .

But there certainly seems to be persuasion or suggestions, by many excellent dommes, to the sub to go beyond or set aside a limit in that session. Some guys allow it and some subs do not.

In a session lasting 2 or 3 hours, which is a common session length with some dommes, it seems fairly natural, for at least some dommes, to gently push or persuade or suggest going beyond a "limit."

Most subs do not distinguish much between a hard and soft limit and most websites and contact forms of dommes do not ask for limits broken into "hard limits" and "soft limits," with soft limits meaning that they may be compromised and open to negotiation!

One well-known domme in Seattle writes for publication in one of the Seattle alternative newspapers and she explicitly says that one of her great joys is to have a sub, and over the space of several sessions, expand his tolerance into new things he would have regarded as a limit previously!

So, limits expand or contract over time . . . Usually limits get smaller over time for most subs, and usually it takes place from one session to the next . . . Or so it is reported.

I and probably many subs have done things or allowed things we would not have done or allowed on our first visit ever to a domme or after the first visit with a domme.

One fellow wrote a review of a session with a domme in New York, and said in the review he posted at maxfisch . . . the domme and I agreed that I would not have a limit on such-and-such topic . .. Or, my limit in that area fell away she was so nice or entrancing or however he put it!

I agree with this entirely regarding paid sessions and sub/dom relationships. I will say that as fiction, say a topic for a skype session where the "coerced behavior" doesn't actually occur or as a fantasy on a clips4sale site it can be pretty exciting stuff.

z, care to share the site?

And this is typical and where the Domme has to use her best judgment about what to introduce into a scene.



"stories" and "clips" may be fictional. I can write erotica where I talk about violating all sorts of boundaries, and some people will find it hot (including me) but that doesn't mean I'd actually do that with a client.



Yes, absolutely. This is fine and normal. I recently had a client I've seen for over three years change a hard limit. He suddenly wanted to experience something with me. It was negotiated prior to the session, however. It was not something I even asked him to do. Because it had been an established hard limit and when someone says NO, that's to be respected.



It depends on how we define "limit" and what kind of limit it is.

Again, hard limits? Never push on them. Ever. I don't even ask if I can do a hard limit. And if I have questions about one, I ask if I the client is okay discussing it first.

But if by "limit" you are talking about what I call a threshold, that is different. For example, pain is something that people commonly have limits about. Some say they are okay with light or moderate pain but don't want it to be "heavy" or "intense". My job is to find the threshold where moderate turns into heavy. And pushing to discover that threshold is something I may do. In that process, the client may discover their "limit" changes insomuch that their own perception of their subjective experience of "moderate" or "heavy" has been altered.



This is where I seem to differ regarding hard and soft limits. I regularly have players imply that a soft *limit* is something they are willing to be pushed into or even something they don't like but are willing to do for the Domme. To me, that is not a *limit*. A limit is clear boundary. So, I define soft limits as things a person is willing to do but have conditions, which, to me, is a more logical approach to understanding what something is or isn't okay with in a scene.

A client telling me "I have a soft limit around estim in that I don't really like but will do it". Where's the limit there? What this client has just told me is they have a preference. The preference is that they don't really like estim. If the person is willing to do it without conditions, then it's not a limit. And when I'm thinking about what I want to do with someone, I simply want to know what is or is not on the table, which is the point of establishing limits.



Sure, it can be a lot of fun to have a sub expand their horizons with you. And I just love when I do something that was not specifically negotiated but was not an established limit and the sub says, "I just loved that, Mistress!" But, again, if a sub establishes something as a *limit* then I respect that. I mean, coercing people to violate their boundaries is gross and rapey.



That makes complete sense to me. As people develop trust with someone, they are more likely to be more comfortable trying things.



It's hard to respond to this fairly without knowing specifics.

When people are under the influence of sub- or Domspace, it affects judgment, like alcohol or a drug. And I think as Dominants we need to be mindful of this and lookout for ourselves and our subs so they don't do something that will harm them and they will later regret.

If someone had established a limit before a scene that marks couldn't last longer than a day but during the scene rapturously cried out, "Mark me, Mistress! Mark my ass with your whip! I want to bleed for you!" I would not do it because I would know it's not their forebrain in control but their limbic system and I would likely create only the fantasy of this happening.

I know that some people really like the feeling of being pushed or "coerced" in a scene. But it's important to make the distinction between fantasy coercion and actual boundary violations. The former is hot the latter is not.

Mistress Tissa, thank you so much for your detailed and thoughtful responses. It made me think, which is truly the key to all of this.

I can't speak about "Dom space" but about "sub space," oh yes, I have gotten drunk on it. That one Domina/athlete I mentioned, in a phone call or two before we had one of our sessions (usually twice a year) I asked for things that were beyond my safe zone. She said, "Oh no, you don't want to do that. You'll just get squirrelly on me just when I'll begin." Oh she knew me... and was absolutely correct. I declined.

As I wrote in another thread, sometimes subs talk with the wrong "head." It takes a responsible and creative Mistress to slap the sub (figuratively and / or literally) to his senses.

I like distinguishing thresholds from limits.

Oh, you're welcome. I love to talk about all of this stuff.



Sad truth is: guys will sabotage and fuck up their lives to get off. Some of us are looking out for you.

It's a necessary distinction, in my view.

A preference isn't a threshold which isn't a limit. All different things but often subsumed under the term "limit".