I have never been a big fan of putting labels on things or people.  It can be so limiting.  But sometimes things do need a bit of definition in order to avoid potential problems.  Recently, I have come to the conclusion that a lot of clients think they are submissive when in actuality they fetishists.  What is the difference?  Let's get to that in a bit.

Accidently misrepresenting yourself to a ProDomme can cause problems in session.  When the Domme is expecting a submissive client and gets what some of us call a "do me" client or a "kingster" things can go downhill fast.  "Do me" and "kingsters" are derogatory terms we use to refer to clients that are very specific about the details of a session and will often continue to convey their desires during the session.  Pure fetishists are often defined as such - mainly due to a misconception of what they really are. 

A fetishist is not necessarily submissive at all.  Fetishists have sexualized a specific activity, body part, type of clothing, etc and need that in session to get where they are wanting to go.  The end desire for a fetishist may very well be to feel submissive or out of control, but he has very specific needs (and is often very controlling where his needs are concerned) in order to reach that end.  

Submissives, on the other hand tend to want to feel out of control and their main desire is to please the person they are with.  They are the delight of most ProDommes because they show up with a list of activities they enjoy, a few hard limits and they want the Domme to take control.  Not knowing what is around the next corner is part of the appeal and they revel in a true power exchange - not a pretend one that they constructed. 

It's not that fetishists are bad clients.  It is just important that we know what we are dealing with going into the session.  By having all the facts we can plan a session that goes smoothly and is what both parties expect. 

Still confused about whether you are a submisive or a fetishist?   Obviously, not everything is black and white but there is a definite difference between the two extremes of submissive and fetishist.  Here are some general ways I identify the differences:

Submissives tend to have a long list of interests and are more concerned about pleasing the Mistress than they are any specific activity.
Fetishists tend to fixate on one or two activities and are usually not open to any others.
Fetishists often have very specific wardrobe requests:  latex, leather, garter belts, etc. 
Submissives are seldom concerned with outfit choices and let the Mistress choose what she is in the mood to wear.
Fetishists often need a roleplay (these can get quite elaborate) to "justify" or get into the mindset of being dominated.
Submissives are usually fine with the slave/Mistress scenario and don't need elaborate roleplays.  
Submissives often have only one Mistress that they serve and crave a special, more devoted relationship.
Fetishists, on the other hand, tend to be more experimental when it comes to who they see.  
Fetishists are very "goal oriented" in session and are very disappointed if the goal isn't reached.
Submissives see sessioning more as a journey that is to be experienced and enjoyed and the end goal is nice if achieved, but it's secondary.

Admittedly most clients that visit a Domme are a blend of submissive and fetishist.  Most submissives have some fetishes that make them feel more submissive.  Many fetishists ultimately want to be controlled/dominated but need their fetish to get into the headspace. 

In general, I prefer playing with clients that lean toward submissive.  I have had some great times with fetishists and I have some "regulars" that I thoroughly enjoy.  However, there have been others that I have decided not to see again.  A fetishist walks a bit of a tightrope when he hopes to see a Domme.  Many of us, that have been in the industry for more than a few years, are truly dominant (not just actors playing a part).  That's why we are still around.  So when we are approached by a client that has very specific requests that don't allow a lot of creativity and/or don't sound particularly respectful of the concept of Female domination, we may balk.  Yes, as ProDommes we are being paid to engage in certain activities, but most of us need to feel empowered by those activities not just a puppet for a client's enjoyment. 

Personally, I tend to have issues with the pure fetishist that has no interest in the power exchange and giving up control.  These clients want to control every aspect of the session down to directing during the session if things aren't going their way.  To Me, that is not what FemDom is about and these clients would be better served with a fetish friendly escort - even if they are not wanting to engage in sex.  The problem is, they often are looking for a skill level that only a ProDomme would possess - and therein lies the rub.  They want our skills but not necessarily the dominant headset that goes along with it.  Communicating all of this prior to a session is very important.  Having no session at all is preferable to having one that could go horribly wrong.  Getting bitchslapped for trying to control the session is probably not something a fetishist fetishizes.  (Try saying that 3 times fast.)

I would like to add that I think some fetishists are on a journey toward submission.  They want to let go, to give up control - they just don't know how to get there.  I have spoken with numerous submissives that started out as pure fetishists.  Along the way, they found their true joy in letting go.  Often they will credit a specific Mistress that helped them turn the corner.  This indicates that trust is required and that developing a special relationship with a Mistress is necessary to make that leap.  

There is nothing wrong with being a pure fetishist.  If that's how you identify, then own it.  But it's important that the Domme you are wanting to see understands your position and can make an informed choice as to whether to grant you a session or not.  Be clear in your communication and be prepared for the occasional turndown.  Trust Me, it's better than being bitchslapped.  

Thoughts or comments?


**Please note that I have used the pronoun "he" throughout this article for simplicity sake.  However, I will note that I have seen many submissive female clients and I don't remember ever seeing one that I would classify as purely a fetishist.  That is certainly not a scientific sampling but it is a quirky fact that I thought I would share.  

As always a very clear and insightful set of thoughts from you Mistress Ayn.

I think you hit the nail on the head in every part of your post, although I would suggest breaking up the list of submissive/fetishist differences into 5 - 2 line groupings instead of just a list of 10 before posting to your blog. I just found it harder to read it the way you posted it and didn't realize at first that each set of 2 lines were grouped as comparisons rather than just a list of dimensions of each type of client.

The only thing I would add is that you do speak about how some fetishists move into submissiveness over time, but I have definitely had some Dommes create fetishes in me that make me approach certain Dommes as somewhat of a fetishist. My best examples are foot tattoos and heavy rubber/latex bondage.

I see different Dommes for many different reasons, but if a Domme has a foot tattoo they jump right to the top of my list (although even with that it needs to be on the foot, and preferably the top, rather than the ankle). For these Dommes, I make a very fetishist style session request about the shoes she wears (non-strappy high heel pumps that show her foot tattoo) and the way we begin/end the session. Throughout the rest, I am my normal shaky submissive self but I literally drop deep into subspace as we get started when she has me kneel and place a kiss on the tattoo. It is also the thing I ask for her to have me do as she dismisses me as it leaves me floating for hours afterwards.

Instead, if a Domme is well known for heavy rubber/latex bondage (which also means all of the proper, and very expensive, equipment that goes with it), then that is literally what I am going to see her for. She can do as she pleases with me once I am heavily bound since that is definitely a lot of the fun but I don't want to waste any of our time with body worship (which I generally love) or corporal or even rope bondage before we get to that. It always works because nobody invests in that stuff unless they absolutely love it so I am still pleasing her, but it is different than my normal approach of not directing any part of the session.

The one question I do have for you is where do masochists fall into the fetishist/submissive scale and are they actually a 3rd class? My experience is that this is more often the case with female masochists than males, but some people are just heavily into S&M only. D/s annoys them and they hate to be dominated, they have no interest in role play or bondage (except to hold them in place while they are being hurt) and especially not discipline (other than being beaten). Instead, they almost fetishistically wish to experience multiple and deep levels of pain along with the marks/bruise/soreness that they can look at and feel long after the play is finished. This might put them in the fetishist category, but they generally don't care about the implements used or the positioning, just the feel of the pain and the rush of endorphins that drives them to take more. Which translates into a more submissive attitude of handing over control of how the Dominant will get them there.

Hi Mistress Aynn,
Wonderful post and I couldn't agree more with you. From my personal experience, I started as a pure fetishist with Mistress Ultra Violet but with every session my trust on her grows more and more, I'm just letting myself go.
I'm still have a huge foot fetish but I am also enjoying just be with her and do whatever she wants. My journey is just getting started but I'm definitely in my way to become a loyal and dedicated slave.
Francisco

Good points, asp. I will clean it up a bit before it hits the blog.

Also a good question about masos . . . I don't think masochists belong in this scale. They are a completely different animal, just like sissies are, and they can be either submissives or fetishists. The submissive maso gets off on offering his body up to the dominant to use as they wish and takes pride in being able to take the abuse and wear the marks. They usually get off on the endorphin rush as a side effect but that is not their main motivation. I should also note that pain isn't their only interest.

The fetishist maso can run the gambit of fetishizing the whole ritual, including the implements, clothing worn, marks or just the experience of the pain itself. I think a fetishist maso tends to have pain as his primary or only interest.

Because of these things I don't think masochists can be blanketly considered a sub or a fetishist. They can be either or a combination of the two.

Hello francisco.

That is what a good Mistress can do and you are in good hands with Mistress Ultra Violet. you will probably (and hopefully) always have a foot fetish, but it may become a less selfish act as you learn to submit and enjoy the journey of submission.

Welcome to the forum.
M. Ayn

In answering francisco I have just had an epiphany: I think I see most pure fetishists as selfish. It's more about them and their pleasure/experience than it is about the Mistress's pleasure - or at least that can be the perception. Of course, that's not necessarily true and a well seasoned, intelligent fetishist knows if the Domme enjoys herself, he will have a much better experience, but again it's the perception of selfishness that can be a put-off. I know we are talking about a PAID activity, but the perception going into it can make a whole world of difference.

Imagine you are a Domme . . . you are very accustomed to hearing . . .

Mistress, I am a submissive that enjoys x,y,z, d,e and f. I would be happy serving you and submitting to any of those activities you wish to explore with me.

or you hear this . . .

I have a foot fetish. I love red toenail polish and closed-toe shoes with no stockings. Stockings are a turn-off, so please don't wear them in session. I also prefer that you wear the shoes all day so your feet are nice and sweaty. I like the taste of salt and leather. I am not into fetish wear and prefer a short skirt or lingerie . . .

Both are legitimate session requests but the first is much more palatable than the second - the second one has a whole lot of "I's" in it. I would probably accept both sessions. The first I would look forward to, the second . . . not so much - but the odds are I would end up enjoying them both. It's My perception that the client is treating Me like a sex doll for his enjoyment (again not necessarily true) and that is distasteful - at least to Me.

By the way, there is a way to word the second session request to make it a whole lot more palatable for the Domme - should anyone care to hear it . . .

Mistress Ayn,
while reading Your thoughts on Submissive or Fetishist a thought jumped out to me. It sounds like another difference might be that to the submissive the who the Domme is, is very important; while to the fetishist; it is more about the item than the Domme.
subfroggie

I can totally accept that as an answer (and not just because of what you will do to me for talking back). It was just a thought I had based on some masochists that I have played with and wanted to get your take on it. When I was writing the post I actually utilized the term "pure masochists" but thought it would come across wrong so I dropped the "pure" before posting.

I think your point about sissies is also a very good one as it is equivalent in many ways. Context is also important in the discussion as the entire point of your blog is how someone should realize which side they are on in order to identify and approach the right Domme for them in the right way. From that perspective, I think those who are purely sissies or masochists should identify as a fetishist rather than as a submissive with that as their primary fetish.

I concur on all points.

Sissies can be a handful too when it comes to trying to control the session - and as much as I love them - they can be among the most selfish (and generous) of all clients.

I would very much agree with that, subfroggie. I once read that submissives internalize and fetishists externalize. That may be an oversimplification but I do think it explains why submissives look for that one true Domme and fetishists tend to jump around.

However, a smart fetishist knows how to hunt out someone that can accommodate him and may stick with that Domme if she fulfills that need. But because they are externalizing, they tend to get bored more easily and that would explain the jumping around. Usually, when I am approached by a long time fetishist, he has a list of references a mile long. That's usually not the case for more submissive clients.

I once had a foot fetishist here in Atlanta that I saw regularly. He would swear that I was the best and that I "got him". Yet every 3-6 months someone would contact Me for a reference. I didn't care but it was obvious he was captivated by the new, pretty face and wanted to give it a twirl. Eventually, we parted ways when his desire to control the session overcame My ability to deal with it. Now I guess he is back looking again.