Cross post from the Hang....curious to see if there is a different set of members here.

I find the subject of Limits fascinating. Things like hard vs soft and how they might evolve over time. Also why something might be a limit....safety?....level of pain/intensity?.... or just something that you simply don't find erotic or exciting and don't want to waste session time on. I have limits that fall under all three categories

Do you find your limits have changed over time? Have you added things to the "hard Limit" list or taken some off?.....or both?

I have a couple of formerly hard limits that are soft limits now (electroplay at very high settings and CBT with capsaicin). I don't really want to experience them again but knowing they might be part of a session can add to the excitement and trepidation. Especially good if you are playing in a limited CNC framework. Also good for pushing you to beg for something else challenging instead. They are unlikely to happen but knowing they will almost certainly show up sometime can add a lot a session's atmosphere

Obviously Dommes have limits too. Do you know Dommes whose limits have shifted over time?

i've dropped a lot of my limits over time. i think this happened for a couple of reasons. first, i learned that some of the things i was afraid of are actually a lot of fun. so i put it down to learning more about kink and also myself. the second thing that changed my views, were the dommes themselves. i've always wanted to please women. i became more willing to experiment and try things that the domme was into. as i sessioned more with a particular domme, we built trust. that trust allowed me to experiment and open myself up to new experiences.

Good points broom, especially the first one. I think for me it's also continually wanting to push on to new things or take past activities up a notch. Doing sessions repeatedly over the years with the same activities at the same level of intensity can get stale. Sometimes trying edgier things can cause regrets/"biting off more than you can chew" (been there, done that ) but often it can add new activities to reinvigorate your sessions.

Yes, there are. No trolls. Heh.




All those things and also it's sometimes an issue of only doing certain things with certain people. One example for me is that I have golden as a limit. It's not because I don't like it. I'm actually a HUGE piss top. I just had an agreement with my partner that it was a special part of our relationship and I don't do it with clients. So, stuff like that can affect limits.



Absolutely.



A limit isn't to be crossed, even in a CNC dynamic. That's a misunderstanding about how CNC works.




Do you mean pushing on people's limits as a way to get you to open your mind to something more "challenging"? Because, again, I would say that limits are not meant to be "pushed" on. To do so is shitty and unethical. I think that what people mean when they say something like, "I like to have my limits pushed" is that they want me to push on their thresholds, which are two different things.

If someone says they don't want to suck a cock you don't ever "push" them on this. You fucking respect it. However, if they say they like to suck cock but say they get nervous about how much they can put in their mouth, then you might want to "test" the threshold about how much dick you can get in there before they start to gag.

Thanks for your detailed (and thoughtful) reply.

I should point out that I make a clear distinction between hard and soft limits. Hard limits are just that and violating one would constitute a serious breach of trust in my mind. Soft limits to me are areas of play or levels of intensity that I find challenging but am willing to have "on the table" sometimes as a possibility. In a CNC context I know that they may happen (or may not) but I am making an informed decision to give prior consent and to proceed.

I would never engage in CNC play that was without limits and where the areas of potential non consensual play were not clearly understood.

To be clear, my former hard limits that are now soft are are activities I agreed would be on the table in a CNC session. I experienced them in that context, not as a violation of a hard limit.

edit

It occurs to me that it might be more accurate to call such play irrevocable consent rather than CNC.

We define soft differently. What's important is that you and the person you play with are on the same page about them.




People don't really get this, but you can never tell someone they have "irrevocable" consent. It's against the law. If someone is being whipped and uses their safeword, and the Dominant said, "Too bad!" and continues to whip them they could get charged with assault. What we're really doing is just fantasy. When done well it feels like you can't get out of it.

I do not mean to be disagreeable, but . . . there are dommes who clearly state that 1) either they do not allow for safewords in any session or 2) they do do CNC sessions . . . Some of these dommes are nationally travelled and nationally known or internationally known.

Some of the dommes or mistresses have in fact posted on maxfisch but whether any of them have posted in this forum, I do not know.

Here is one example, from the website of a fairly well known mistress/domme . . .

She says . . . I am "one of the [lovers] of corporal punishment . . . I do nt see first time players. . . I d’t permit safe words. . ."

She is American domme or mistress who has not been arrested or had legal problems from sessions, so far as we know, and who links with and does doubles with others who post on maxfisch, among other locations.

I have edited the quotations from her website so as to temporarily obscure who it is--but you would know it immediately if you have been to her site and have read through her introduction and interests.

Right now, a person who copies the above in quotes will get few or no "hits" in a search engine, but by adding back the missing words . . . you will then bring up pages re parental spanking or her website . . .

Maybe she is breaking the law in half her sessions, but no one gets to complaining!

The one with saying she does not allow for safewords or there are no safewords in a corp punishment sesh is a little unusual cause she is so blunt and direct . . . but there seem to be others and I have seen 1 or more of them, who either have a no safeword policy or do CNC sessions in which they won't stop till they feel they are done or you are done.

There are people such as I who would tend to see such mistresses and I am pretty sure there are a dozen or so on each coast. Given the clips4sale of another one a few miles from the one I am quoting . . . either she is lying about some of her sessions or there are many which are nonconsensual with a guy having asked her to stop at some point.

First of all, being internationally known doesn't mean you necessarily understand laws; or, as is also in your case, ztrade, the difference between fantasy and reality.

I have spoken about safewords in the past, but I'm going to briefly revisit the topic.

Some people believe that a safeword is a Domme on/off switch. That she is supposed to mindlessly whack you/humiliate you/mummify you/etc until you safeword out. In essence, some mistakenly think that it's some kind of way for the sub to retain control of the Domme and the scene. It's not. It's meant for something like a medical emergency, or if the Domme has a total misread of the sub (whether because the sub is a dead fish or because of a lack of skill) and the scene needs to change in a major way, or the bottom realizes they don't want to do any of this at all and would really like to go home now, thank you. It is used to stop the scene for a serious reason.

If a sub/bottom goes into a scene ready to safeword then the whole scene is being approached incorrectly.




Here's what this could mean:

1. She, like many other professionals, is appealing to fantasy. In this case, it's the fantasy of not having a way out. But, in truth, if you were to safeword, she would stop the scene. She *should* stop the scene.

2. She is indicating she is only interested in M/s corporal scenes. While safewords should still be honored, the expectation is different for this dynamic than in D/s.

3. She doesn't know what she's doing and honestly thinks she can keep you from revoking consent.




I didn't say that everyone who doesn't allow people to revoke consent *will be* arrested and charged with assault, I said they *could* be. Of course the sub/bottom would have to go to the police and file charges. "I told her to stop hitting me and she would not." = assault. If the client doesn't do this then no one will be charged. Either way, anyone who doesn't allow you to revoke consent is someone you should avoid. Being some famous FemDom doesn't mean you're above the law. It doesn't mean you get to abuse people.

I know that in some cases clients have not had their safewords and boundaries respected and it has had a sometimes profound effect of their ability to trust and enjoy themselves. I have had multiple clients come to me who have shared these types of experiences. Sometimes it can ruin their wanting to try any of this ever again.



We really don't know what is happening before, during, and after those scenes. Once in a while we hear about a pro Domme in the news, don't we? A Financial Domination exchange involving blackmail (this is called extortion and it is always against the law), some erotic asphyxiation that ended in death, or for going along with some priest's invitation to play in a church.



I'm completely aware of this approach. Some Dommes present themselves very heavily steeped in fantasy; it's their brand. But saying that you don't allow safewords does not actually mean you don't allow them. It's just a way to attract certain kinds of clients who want certain kinds of scenes. Because you have shown in your posts that you have trouble understanding that everything-you-see-on-TV-is-not-real, this may be why you are confused here.




It's not necessarily "lying", it's likely just marketing.

Well

re

"1. She, like many other professionals, is appealing to fantasy. In this case, it's the fantasy of not having a way out. But, in truth, if you were to safeword, she would stop the scene. She *should* stop the scene."

and the domme who says no safewords allowed for corp punishment on her website in her intro or interest area . . .

It is a simple matter of my having some extra time and the money in the next few years to take the time to see her.

then we might know more. But . . . in actual practice . . . with a number of dommes . . . I tend to request a session with no safewords . . . and in practice, once the domme understands that, 70% of the time, at the start of the session, the domme does not offer me a safeword and I do not ask for one.

I have gone into most sessions with no agreed upon safeword . . . and maybe the domme responds to red and maybe not and I often do not know or have told her to not to respond, unless I say or indicate: I am having a heart attack. And I have at times shared enough med history for the domme to know the doctors are convinced I have no high BP, no heart disease and no history of angina or signs of CVD. So . . . if I am having a heart attack, it is completely outside of my medical history and we both know it.

So, having a sesh with no known safeword is not just a fantasy or just a dream . . . even if some dungeons try to make all dommes using the dungeon give and honor a safeword . . . I've had sessions with no known safewords and other sessions in which I was gagged for most of the corp punishment of the session . . .

At least once I have been gagged intentionally to prevent talking, including say a safeword or trying. So . . . half of the dommes I see are criminals and we do not know it?

Interesting discussion with some good points made on a complex subject. At the risk of making a terrible pun it seems to me this is a topic that has shades of gray.

I guess I fall somewhere in the middle. I would never play without a safeword or signal that could convey a serious issue like a breathing problem or loss of circulation. I also would not engage in a session where my hard limits might not be respected.

On the other hand, I have played with limited CNC that within the guardrails discussed above certain activities were contemplated that would happen whether I wished them to or not at the time. I knew this going in and agreed.

The most common (and toughest) for me have been sessions where it was agreed I would be required to have at least 2 orgasms before being released and play would continue following the first one. Post O I was not aroused and certainly did not want to be there. Once I was recovered and became aroused again things were fine but for those 30-40-50 minutes it was certainly NC.

I guess I see this as having something in common with certain extreme sports. You can't say "OK, I'm quitting now" 5 seconds after you have exited the plane while skydiving, 5 days into a 10 day solo ocean passage in a small boat or 100feet up a 200foot face while rock climbing. The situation doesn't just magically end because you want it to. From what I've read parts of climbing Everest are miserable but standing on the summit is magical.

Anyway, this seems to have morphed into a discussion more about CNC play and safewords rather than limits and how they might evolve,.....but that's OK.....a sign of a good discussion!