An interesting article on the subject - http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/08/18/is_kink_a_sexual_orientation.html

Near the end of the article "Orientation" is defined as "Any sexual identity that is so fixed and unshakable that it defies choice, reason, and even, at times, simple evolutionary explanation." So what do you thinK? Comments?

Down deep Savage wants to believe that orientation is binary i.e. either straight or gay and that the other options are merely equivocations by gays who cannot fully accept what they are. Not surprisingly he has had a history of problems with bisexuals, transsexuals and asexuals. In regard to those valid orientations I do not side with Savage but in the case of kink I think he's right. The argument being made here that kink is an orientation oddly reminds me of the argument that "demisexuality" is an orientation which I don't buy either.

Connected with this is the issue of whether a kinky person can genuinely enjoy vanilla sex. I certainly do. I guess there are some who cannot enjoy anything that is devoid of kink I would like to think they are in the minority. And then there is the phenomena of dommes who claim that they do indeed get aroused in many of their sessions but their private love-life is vanilla. How does this make any sense if kink is an orientation?

As for "fixed and unshakable" does that mean that a person's fantasies remain constant all through their life. Hmm that's not exactly true in my case. I have been thinking about starting a thread about going through phases using my own as an example. How is it possible to go through a phase if it is "fixed and unshakable"?

I tend to agree with you, thomas. I think the problem with our society is that we want things to fit neatly in a box and we love labels - but seldom are things that simple - especially when it comes to human nature and sexality in particular.

I've known subs that believe they were born with their fetish(s). Some (definitely the minority) declare they cannot reach climax without at least fantasizing about their particular kink. For them maybe it is an orientation. Personally, I developed My kink. I found certain things interesting and fun and I explored and nurtured them. I don't think it's an orientation with Me. It's a choice. Could I put the Genie back in the bottle? I don't know, but like you, I have the ability to enjoy the flavor of vanilla.

Thanks for commenting and sharing your thoughts. I always like hearing your thoughtful opinions.

I am not convinced that orientation and identity as they are defined in these ways exist.

I know a person who has abused alcohol. Is she an alcoholic? Was she born an alcoholic? Will she always be an alcoholic? The answer to the first question is debatable. The next answers are no and probably not. Was she an alcoholic in the closet and then an outed alcoholic and is she a permanent outed alcoholic?

Lots of people change over time, whether it comes to sex, drugs, alcohol, honest, paying your taxes and a dozen other things. Some people change suddenly and some people change gradually.

Even of those who practice or receive bdsm, consider the following:

Sub abc was opposed to (or unfamiliar with, or, indifferent to) golden showers--or forced bi or lmn quirk-- . . . and then, with mistress xyz, he was convinced, persuaded, forced or induced to try it . . . or he just stumbled into it when mistress xyz led him into it and he did not stop her . . .

and now, sub abc relishes, enjoys and seeks out gs or fb or lmn even on his own.

Is it half of the people, maybe more, who post here or at maxfisch have one or more stories including some activity of this type?

So, within the bdsm practitioners, there are people whose favorite activity has changed from month to month or year to year, or whose favorite activity is one that did not occur to them prior to year defg.

There are others who did not seek or practice bdsm when younger but adopted it in middle age. bdsm in different forms has existed in Hebrew, Greek and Roman culture for thousands of years and no one would have thought that someone who practiced bdsm at certain points was not normal and also strongly overlapping with the vanilla life practitioners.

There seems to be good evidence that Julius Caesar practiced some homosexual sex at times and that Shakespeare wrote some sonnets about a man lover--yet few people remember or know or even pay attention to these aspects of their lives . . . Abraham Lincoln spent some of his life sleeping in bed with a man and we are not sure if there was sex involved.

Sure . . . some people are more inclined to do some things and others are less inclined to do various things . . .

but for many people their inclinations change over time;

sometimes it is unpredictable and sometimes it is wilful;
sometimes it seems to have a cause and sometimes it is inexplicable;
sometimes when there is a cause it seems to relate to a personal; choice and sometimes there may be a cause that does not seem to relate to a personal choice.

A few thousand years ago, there were followers of the Goddess Cybill and part of being a worshipper of Cybill meant being whipped till blood was flowing, if I recall that correctly and her name correctly.

Yet no one would have said, then or now, that worshippers of the Goddess Cybil were just born that way. No one is or was "just born a worshipper of Goddess Cybil."

Democrats are not born that way; Republicans are not born that way. Being white and rich may influence your choice; being stopped by police for driving while black may influence your choice. Yet Sheriff Clarke on Foxnews and at the Trump-supporting RNC is a black redneck . . .

Sheriff Clarke's birth skin color did not determine his occupation or his views on Black Lives Matter. Now, if he had been a slave in 1861, that might have inclined him to favor Lincoln, but in 2010, Sheriff Clarke's choices are very wide and choices A and B and C often lead to D E and F without thinking much about it.

I am not saying that certain people do not have certain inclinations. I am saying that inclinations for many people change over time, sometimes unpredictably and sometimes intentionally and that choices and experiences influence our inclinations.

There are studies of people who are then encouraged to listen to Bach and Mozart. Listening to Bach and Mozart tends to reduce depression, reduce criminal behavior and increase clear and creative thinking. . . but there are other people who are so attached to their depression or criminal behavior that they don't want to hear Bach and Mozart!

I also do not believe that my friend will always be an alcoholic!

Yeah, my views are not the majority view, but the most that anyone can say, it seems to me, with some proof, is that some people are currently inclined to do pqr, just like, in 2014, my friend was inclined to drink more alcohol than was good or reasonable for her. . .

If not, then, show me the proof.

The questions of
"Do we do what we do because of who we are?"
or
"Are we are what we are because of what we do?" are questions that philosophers have debated since Aristotle . . . with renewed interest since Kirkegaard, Camus, Nietsche and Sartre. And when they were debating these questions for the last 2500 years, it was not over sexuality, usually, but over questions such as honesty, integrity, political orientation and being a Nazi or not.

For a lot of people the question of their orientation is like the orientation of a plane that they are flying. The plane is flying at this altitude and this speed and with this tilt and headed up or down because I began at opr and am headed to tuvw. Change one thing and you change everything.

It was Cybele

Mistress Ayn, I completely agree with you about the unfortunate current obsession with labeling one's sexuality. I roll my eyes whenever I read a belabored discussion of the alleged difference between bisexual and pansexual.

There is one more perspective on this topic that needs to be mentioned. One common argument one hears from the AntiPorn crusaders is that habitual use of it causes the viewer to escalate to more and more depraved stuff. Really terrible unspeakably vile stuff like <drum roll>

BDSM!!!!

Gasp!

Actually like most good propaganda there is a small grain of truth here and so is another argument against the notion of an orientation.

Yes. For me, definitely!
https://www.niteflirt.com/MiddleEasternDomme

Yup . . . after writing the post I checked and found it was Cybele and did not go back and edit my post . . .